4 ms·

AWD != 4x4. AWD + traction control absolutely helps driving on snow and ice with appropriate tyres. If you are driving with summer tyres on ice, then of course

AWD != 4x4. AWD + traction control absolutely helps driving on snow and ice with appropriate tyres. If you are driving with summer tyres on ice, then of course you are going to be skittering all over the place. When going downhill on ice, again your tyres are going to make ALL the difference. You shouldnt be trying to stop going downhill on ice anyway. You should be descending at a constant and controlled speed.

alkonaut 4y ago
I think "AWD" today is used to mean "anything that isn't 2WD". So whether it's a full time 4x4 or something that is mostly-fwd-but-rwd-when-slipping or something else isn't part of the nomenclature. It simply means "something more than 2WD at least some of the time". There has been an endless debate as to whether 4WD or AWD are the same or different, whether only "symmetric" or "full time" counts as one or the other. But these days with hybrid drives, traction control shifting drive front/back etc., it's just too complex to keep apart any more.
- supermatt 4y ago
  Not really - AWD is effectively non-braking traction control by varying the power distribution to each axle (and on some modern electric drivetrains, each wheel). 4wd provides constant power to both axles.
  - alkonaut 4y ago
    I think of it more as an outdated distinction. First of all with motors on each wheel and no communication between front/rear in many cases, the distinction becomes blurry. Further many manufacturers have names like “AWD” (volvo and others) or “4matic” (MB) or “4motion” (VW) to label their take on more-than-2wd, whether or not their variant is awd or 4WD (or both) in the traditional sense. Some "AWD" models will be electric with 1 motor per axle, or 3 motors (1 front 2 rear) etc. Some others are ICE with traditional drive shaft to the rear wheel axle, which in some cases will drive 50/50 and in some cases variable. Others still are hybrids wth no prop shaft but instead a rear electric motor etc.
    - supermatt 4y ago
      Its not outdated. There may be multiple variations on AWD (as i mentioned, some can vary power to individual wheels, rather than just the axles), but 4WD (or 4x4) is categorically not AWD.
      - alkonaut 4y ago
        Doesn't traction control further blur that? Given that traction control is now required almost everywhere, and involves cutting power to individual wheels (Not like ESP using brakes), at what point does traction control cutting power to individual wheels or axles dynamically in a 4x4/4WD system make it an "AWD" instead? Perhaps those vehicles that use 4x4 in the tradtional sense are such that you have to engage it and that effectively cuts also any traction control - and then you disengage for normal driving?
        supermatt 4y ago
        Traction control on an AWD system can be composed of power management (overall torque output), power distribution (how much power goes to each axle/wheel) and braking (slowing down individual wheels). Traction control on a 4WD can only consist of power management and braking, because there is no way to vary the distribution (otherwise it would be AWD, not 4WD). There are some systems that under certain conditions will switch from 2WD to 4WD. Those systems are NOT considered AWD and dont have the benefits thereof. FYI, ESP (Electronic Stability Program) is just a brand term for an ESC (Electronic Stability Control) which covers both TCS and ABS. When people talk about "traction control" they usually mean the entire ESC subsystem.
        alkonaut 4y ago
        I think part of why I consider them to be one and the same is because in the total absence of "true" 4WD/4x4 (approximately no one drives pickup trucks in Europe, I'm guessing that's where the true 4x4 still lives in the US) so the 4WD/2WD moniker has been used for 2WD/AWD as in "Will you get the 2WD or 4WD tesla is used somewhat sloppily?". It seems car manufacturers though are still careful not to call anything 4WD or 4x4 when it's not.
  - meetingthrower 4y ago
    Agree. We have a Tacoma that has 4WD and it is the absolute dumbest implementation. Contrast that to the Subaru with AWD and it is a completely different driving experience. We go with studs on the Tacoma for that reason, and get by with regular snows on the Subie.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
Tor3 4y ago
It doesn't mean any difference when you're trying to slow down downhill. As you're saying, "your tyres are going to make ALL the difference." Which is exactly what I said - 4x4 or AWD doesn't help anything with that.
- supermatt 4y ago
  Well actually... 4x4 is worse for going downhill on ice. If one axle loses traction (which would be much more likely on summer tyres), the other can initiate a slide. This is the exact reason people dont like 4x4 on ice. AWD (usually) lessens the problem - which is why i said they absolutely help with the correct tyres. And again - DONT SLOW DOWN when going down hill. Your brakes WILL lock a wheel and you WILL slide. Slow down BEFORE you go downhill. If you havent experienced this truth, then you havent driven downhill on ice (which is preferable).
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Yeah 4xAWD (let’s piss everyone off) helps maintain action when you’re driving IN the snow (you have a slightly better chance of not getting stuck if you can power all your wheels and have appropriately calibrated antislip). But losing control because of ice can happen no matter how many driven or traction control wheels you have. And all wheels are basically skis when you’re skidding at 90° to the direction of travel. In fact, in some skids front wheel drive will be the best as at least you have a chance of powersteering out. The real trick is to not start the skid at all. Sloooooooow down before you’re driving sideways.
    - supermatt 4y ago
      > In fact, in some skids front wheel drive will be the best as at least you have a chance of powersteering out. Yep, this is actually why AWD is (usually) better than 4WD, because it can drive the single axle, treating it as a 2WD.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- 4y ago
adql 4y ago
> AWD != 4x4. AWD + traction control absolutely helps driving on snow and ice with appropriate tyres. Too late buddy. The way manufacturers abused AWD, 4WD and 4x4 terms they can mean anything now
- supermatt 4y ago
  Which manufacturer is using AWD incorrectly?
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Dodge. They call their Charger implementation AWD, but it’s RWD only until a slip, then it engages the front axel. They fooled me, and it drove like crap on snow. Always wanted to slide.
    - illuminerdy 4y ago
      [dead]

alkonaut 4y ago

I think "AWD" today is used to mean "anything that isn't 2WD". So whether it's a full time 4x4 or something that is mostly-fwd-but-rwd-when-slipping or something else isn't part of the nomenclature. It simply means "something more than 2WD at least some of the time". There has been an endless debate as to whether 4WD or AWD are the same or different, whether only "symmetric" or "full time" counts as one or the other. But these days with hybrid drives, traction control shifting drive front/back etc., it's just too complex to keep apart any more.

supermatt 4y ago
Not really - AWD is effectively non-braking traction control by varying the power distribution to each axle (and on some modern electric drivetrains, each wheel). 4wd provides constant power to both axles.
- alkonaut 4y ago
  I think of it more as an outdated distinction. First of all with motors on each wheel and no communication between front/rear in many cases, the distinction becomes blurry. Further many manufacturers have names like “AWD” (volvo and others) or “4matic” (MB) or “4motion” (VW) to label their take on more-than-2wd, whether or not their variant is awd or 4WD (or both) in the traditional sense. Some "AWD" models will be electric with 1 motor per axle, or 3 motors (1 front 2 rear) etc. Some others are ICE with traditional drive shaft to the rear wheel axle, which in some cases will drive 50/50 and in some cases variable. Others still are hybrids wth no prop shaft but instead a rear electric motor etc.
  - supermatt 4y ago
    Its not outdated. There may be multiple variations on AWD (as i mentioned, some can vary power to individual wheels, rather than just the axles), but 4WD (or 4x4) is categorically not AWD.
    - alkonaut 4y ago
      Doesn't traction control further blur that? Given that traction control is now required almost everywhere, and involves cutting power to individual wheels (Not like ESP using brakes), at what point does traction control cutting power to individual wheels or axles dynamically in a 4x4/4WD system make it an "AWD" instead? Perhaps those vehicles that use 4x4 in the tradtional sense are such that you have to engage it and that effectively cuts also any traction control - and then you disengage for normal driving?
      - supermatt 4y ago
        Traction control on an AWD system can be composed of power management (overall torque output), power distribution (how much power goes to each axle/wheel) and braking (slowing down individual wheels). Traction control on a 4WD can only consist of power management and braking, because there is no way to vary the distribution (otherwise it would be AWD, not 4WD). There are some systems that under certain conditions will switch from 2WD to 4WD. Those systems are NOT considered AWD and dont have the benefits thereof. FYI, ESP (Electronic Stability Program) is just a brand term for an ESC (Electronic Stability Control) which covers both TCS and ABS. When people talk about "traction control" they usually mean the entire ESC subsystem.
        alkonaut 4y ago
        I think part of why I consider them to be one and the same is because in the total absence of "true" 4WD/4x4 (approximately no one drives pickup trucks in Europe, I'm guessing that's where the true 4x4 still lives in the US) so the 4WD/2WD moniker has been used for 2WD/AWD as in "Will you get the 2WD or 4WD tesla is used somewhat sloppily?". It seems car manufacturers though are still careful not to call anything 4WD or 4x4 when it's not.
- meetingthrower 4y ago
  Agree. We have a Tacoma that has 4WD and it is the absolute dumbest implementation. Contrast that to the Subaru with AWD and it is a completely different driving experience. We go with studs on the Tacoma for that reason, and get by with regular snows on the Subie.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

Tor3 4y ago

It doesn't mean any difference when you're trying to slow down downhill. As you're saying, "your tyres are going to make ALL the difference." Which is exactly what I said - 4x4 or AWD doesn't help anything with that.

supermatt 4y ago
Well actually... 4x4 is worse for going downhill on ice. If one axle loses traction (which would be much more likely on summer tyres), the other can initiate a slide. This is the exact reason people dont like 4x4 on ice. AWD (usually) lessens the problem - which is why i said they absolutely help with the correct tyres. And again - DONT SLOW DOWN when going down hill. Your brakes WILL lock a wheel and you WILL slide. Slow down BEFORE you go downhill. If you havent experienced this truth, then you havent driven downhill on ice (which is preferable).
- bombcar 4y ago
  Yeah 4xAWD (let’s piss everyone off) helps maintain action when you’re driving IN the snow (you have a slightly better chance of not getting stuck if you can power all your wheels and have appropriately calibrated antislip). But losing control because of ice can happen no matter how many driven or traction control wheels you have. And all wheels are basically skis when you’re skidding at 90° to the direction of travel. In fact, in some skids front wheel drive will be the best as at least you have a chance of powersteering out. The real trick is to not start the skid at all. Sloooooooow down before you’re driving sideways.
  - supermatt 4y ago
    > In fact, in some skids front wheel drive will be the best as at least you have a chance of powersteering out. Yep, this is actually why AWD is (usually) better than 4WD, because it can drive the single axle, treating it as a 2WD.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
4y ago

adql 4y ago

> AWD != 4x4. AWD + traction control absolutely helps driving on snow and ice with appropriate tyres. Too late buddy. The way manufacturers abused AWD, 4WD and 4x4 terms they can mean anything now

supermatt 4y ago
Which manufacturer is using AWD incorrectly?
- falcolas 4y ago
  Dodge. They call their Charger implementation AWD, but it’s RWD only until a slip, then it engages the front axel. They fooled me, and it drove like crap on snow. Always wanted to slide.
  - illuminerdy 4y ago
    [dead]