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> Real evidence that would justify putting him in prison? The bar for putting someone in prison is higher than the one for not voting in that person. Not sure

> Real evidence that would justify putting him in prison? The bar for putting someone in prison is higher than the one for not voting in that person. Not sure why you keep conflating the two. Thinking Lula is a great or even serviceable candidate is unfathomable to me.

matheusmoreira 4y ago
> Thinking Lula is a great or even serviceable candidate is unfathomable to me. Agreed. That this man was not only allowed to run for presidency but actually won is probably the greatest humiliation ever imposed on the people of Brazil. I barely have words to describe how it felt to watch this guy be sworn into power yesterday.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  > is probably the greatest humiliation ever imposed on the people of Brazil I find having a science denier with fascist overtones to be worse, but alas I'm not trying to say how I feel is how all the people of Brazil feel. > I barely have words to describe how it felt to watch this guy be sworn into power yesterday. Me neither, but probably for the opposite reason. I do have Bolsonaro and Mourão to thank for the beautiful ceremony where populars representing all background passed the Presidential sash to Lula though. Had they not been so cowardly and vindicative, one of them might have been there in place of all those beautiful people. That was a ceremony which is going to appear in history books for decades or centuries to come!
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    > Had they not been so cowardly and vindicative I'll end this pointless argument by agreeing with you on this. Those bastards are cowards. Seeing Bolsonaro run away like a rat was just as humiliating to the people who supported him and the brazilian right in general.
cassianoleal 4y ago
> Not sure why you keep conflating the two. I didn't. I merely said that _common sense_ doesn't say that Lula should be in prison, and it never should - as you rightfully said, the bar for putting someone in prison is higher than popular vote. I then proceeded to say that common sense does say he should be in office. He was, after all, voted in.
- airstrike 4y ago
  > I didn't. I merely said that _common sense_ doesn't say that Lula should be in prison, and it never should - as you rightfully said, the bar for putting someone in prison is higher than popular vote. So you're just restating what I said? > I then proceeded to say that common sense does say he should be in office. He was, after all, voted in. I didn't say he shouldn't be in office today given he was voted in. I'm saying people generally shouldn't have voted for him because it's illogical to support such a bad candidate. I also said I understand that people voted for him because the only other alternative was Bolsonaro -- hell, I started my comment with that. The corollary to that being that we shouldn't celebrate Lula's victory. It's the lesser of two evils, but a tragedy nonetheless. That's the crux of my point. Everything else you're arguing is tangential, arguably irrelevant and feels like you have an agenda to convince others (me?) that Lula is great because he's "innocent" (for some value of "innocent").
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    > So you're just restating what I said? No, you literally said: > I'm arguing that according to common sense, he is guilty of corruption. That's what I was disagreeing with. > I'm saying people generally shouldn't have voted for him because it's illogical to support such a bad candidate. That's fair. It's also a personal opinion which seems to go against common sense, given that he was in fact voted in. > I also said I understand that people voted for him because the only other alternative was Bolsonaro Yep, a lot of people did that. In fact, I suspect a lot of people did the opposite as well - voted for Bolsonaro thinking he was the least bad of 2 bad choices. > The corollary to that being that we shouldn't celebrate Lula's victory. Again, an opinion. In my personal opinion, one of the greater tragedies is having Alckmin for vice-president. Having Temer with Dilma was a grave mistake. I just hope this time around they've learned something. > feels like you have an agenda to convince others (me?) that Lula is great because he's "innocent" (for some value of "innocent"). Not at all, I was arguing about his innocence. Everything else are personal opinions on how good or bad a candidate he is and I'm not in any way trying to convince you to change yours. In fact, I do think we mostly agree with regards to the facts. We do seem to disagree with regards to his actual innocence (as opposed to technical) but I'm not quite arguing about that either. In any case, I do see your point-of-view clearly (I think) and I absolutely respect it, even where I might disagree. Or perhaps even more so, as it enriches the debate.

matheusmoreira 4y ago

> Thinking Lula is a great or even serviceable candidate is unfathomable to me. Agreed. That this man was not only allowed to run for presidency but actually won is probably the greatest humiliation ever imposed on the people of Brazil. I barely have words to describe how it felt to watch this guy be sworn into power yesterday.

cassianoleal 4y ago
> is probably the greatest humiliation ever imposed on the people of Brazil I find having a science denier with fascist overtones to be worse, but alas I'm not trying to say how I feel is how all the people of Brazil feel. > I barely have words to describe how it felt to watch this guy be sworn into power yesterday. Me neither, but probably for the opposite reason. I do have Bolsonaro and Mourão to thank for the beautiful ceremony where populars representing all background passed the Presidential sash to Lula though. Had they not been so cowardly and vindicative, one of them might have been there in place of all those beautiful people. That was a ceremony which is going to appear in history books for decades or centuries to come!
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  > Had they not been so cowardly and vindicative I'll end this pointless argument by agreeing with you on this. Those bastards are cowards. Seeing Bolsonaro run away like a rat was just as humiliating to the people who supported him and the brazilian right in general.

cassianoleal 4y ago

> Not sure why you keep conflating the two. I didn't. I merely said that _common sense_ doesn't say that Lula should be in prison, and it never should - as you rightfully said, the bar for putting someone in prison is higher than popular vote. I then proceeded to say that common sense does say he should be in office. He was, after all, voted in.

airstrike 4y ago
> I didn't. I merely said that _common sense_ doesn't say that Lula should be in prison, and it never should - as you rightfully said, the bar for putting someone in prison is higher than popular vote. So you're just restating what I said? > I then proceeded to say that common sense does say he should be in office. He was, after all, voted in. I didn't say he shouldn't be in office today given he was voted in. I'm saying people generally shouldn't have voted for him because it's illogical to support such a bad candidate. I also said I understand that people voted for him because the only other alternative was Bolsonaro -- hell, I started my comment with that. The corollary to that being that we shouldn't celebrate Lula's victory. It's the lesser of two evils, but a tragedy nonetheless. That's the crux of my point. Everything else you're arguing is tangential, arguably irrelevant and feels like you have an agenda to convince others (me?) that Lula is great because he's "innocent" (for some value of "innocent").
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  > So you're just restating what I said? No, you literally said: > I'm arguing that according to common sense, he is guilty of corruption. That's what I was disagreeing with. > I'm saying people generally shouldn't have voted for him because it's illogical to support such a bad candidate. That's fair. It's also a personal opinion which seems to go against common sense, given that he was in fact voted in. > I also said I understand that people voted for him because the only other alternative was Bolsonaro Yep, a lot of people did that. In fact, I suspect a lot of people did the opposite as well - voted for Bolsonaro thinking he was the least bad of 2 bad choices. > The corollary to that being that we shouldn't celebrate Lula's victory. Again, an opinion. In my personal opinion, one of the greater tragedies is having Alckmin for vice-president. Having Temer with Dilma was a grave mistake. I just hope this time around they've learned something. > feels like you have an agenda to convince others (me?) that Lula is great because he's "innocent" (for some value of "innocent"). Not at all, I was arguing about his innocence. Everything else are personal opinions on how good or bad a candidate he is and I'm not in any way trying to convince you to change yours. In fact, I do think we mostly agree with regards to the facts. We do seem to disagree with regards to his actual innocence (as opposed to technical) but I'm not quite arguing about that either. In any case, I do see your point-of-view clearly (I think) and I absolutely respect it, even where I might disagree. Or perhaps even more so, as it enriches the debate.