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Nope nope nope. These might be helpful in institutional environments such as work or school, but generally outside of that there are no such rules... That's th

Nope nope nope. These might be helpful in institutional environments such as work or school, but generally outside of that there are no such rules... That's the key to unlocking meaningful social interactions with new people. Some people want you to mirror them, others want you to be unashamedly unique, some want someone to argue with, some are painfully quiet but are happy with anything you give them, some are irritated with everyone by default, etc. The only thing to know in the real world is acceptance and having an open mind about how to interact. The most social of folks love learning new people. It's not easy for them either, but they enjoy the challenge. Thinking about rules, having expectations, and generally just being inflexible is a one-way ticket to needing to "manage your emotions". Close your eyes, take a deep breath, and... wait where'd they go? Aww :(

klodolph 4y ago
Choosing to ignore the rules of conversation and follow a purely intuitive approach doesn’t actually make you behave in a more “authentic” way, it is just a different way of behaving that is equally authentic. Yes, you need to have an open mind. But we live in a society! The society has norms. Following the norms fosters trust; people are usually more comfortable when other people follow the norms. It’s a fast track to getting to the deeper, juicy bits of conversation. The norms can be intuitively learned if you are empathetic, but some of us are distracted or careless and it helps to have a reminder of what the norms are and what purposes they serve. Smalltalk and politesse may be shallow but it’s the shallow parts of conversation where people learn to trust each other. The deeper parts of conversation follow.
- sublinear 4y ago
  Sure I can elaborate. I'm not saying to disrespect boundaries. I'm saying "norms" are different for each person. What we call "personality" could be described as an accumulation of errors in communicating norms resulting in some amount of uniqueness. There's no choice but to use your intuition. Being "distracted or careless" and defaulting to a set of rules would probably offend most people and make them lose trust. The best conversations and fastest friendships I've ever had got started by skipping the small talk and making a correct guess about their interests or opinions. This is unsettling for some because it's remarkably close to prejudice, but it's just how people are.
  - d23 4y ago
    > There's no choice but to use your intuition. There is an alternative: take the time and learn some emotional intelligence if it's not your strong suit. If you seriously think anyone likes your tendency to interrupt, one-up, complete disregard for their level of interest in the topic, and taking 100% of the oxygen without letting them speak, you're deluding yourself.
  - klodolph 4y ago
    > I'm saying "norms" are different for each person. We’re using the word “norms” differently, then. Norms are what you use with people you don’t know. They’re based on cultural contexts. The rules of conversations are observations about how people tend to expect conversations to unfold in a particular culture and context. You can approach the norms as descriptive or prescriptive. Both approaches are useful, but you’ll (IMO) get more mileage out of the descriptive approach. If you think of norms as prescriptive rules that you must follow in order to have a good conversation, then they won’t work very well. The same is true if you look at conversations on a smaller scale—we also have rules for grammar and vocabulary, and those rules can also be approached from a descriptive or prescriptive angle. > There's no choice but to use your intuition. This part is flat wrong. You do not have to use only intuition. Human nature is not somehow inexplicable, it is not somehow beyond our power to describe how good conversations work, or what friendship is, or what the nature of love is. Our intuition about other people and our relationships is extremely powerful but it is not all-powerful. This is why people write in to relationship advice columns (or modern analogues like Reddit). People ask for help with their relationships because intuition is not enough. Some things need to be explained with words. You do not need to follow these rules like a robot. They are just there to help you understand how to interact well with other people. The rules are not there so someone who is distracted or careless can more easily make better connections with other people; the rules are there as an explanation for how people who are paying attention will make connections. Again, if you look closer you’ll also find that the grammar we use follows rules too. There are entire sections at the library full of books that explain the grammar of the English language. This isn’t really any different. The books can either explain the rules as directives that you must follow (the prescriptive approach), or explain the rules as observations about how native speakers write and speak English (the descriptive approach). Someone who’s fluent won’t need to think about the rules because they’re internalized, but they’ll still mostly follow the rules anyway. Someone who is clumsy and new at English will generally benefit from studying the rules.
munificent 4y ago
> but generally outside of that there are no such rules. Like music, programming, painting, and many other complex human activities, there are and aren't rules. When you're not a sophisticated practitioner, it's best to treat it like there are rules because those will give you the basic structure to get you from beginner to moderate. Eventually, when you are skilled enough, you learn that the rules are more like guidelines and begin to develop an intuition for when they should be bent or ignored. It's important not to criticize anyone for where they are on their journey. If rules help someone, then telling them "there are no rules" is anti-helpful.
d23 4y ago
> Nope nope nope. What an absurd way to start a comment about something that is essentially conversation 101. These are some of the most basic conversation skills imaginable, and if you think they warrant a "nope nope nope," someone should break it to you that you're probably a terrible conversation partner.
- dang 4y ago
  Hey, please don't respond to a bad bit by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes everything worse. I was with you on the "nope nope nope" but personal attack and putdowns are not the way to make this point! https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - d23 4y ago
    Thanks. You're right. I can and should do better.
    - dang 4y ago
      Appreciated!

klodolph 4y ago

Choosing to ignore the rules of conversation and follow a purely intuitive approach doesn’t actually make you behave in a more “authentic” way, it is just a different way of behaving that is equally authentic. Yes, you need to have an open mind. But we live in a society! The society has norms. Following the norms fosters trust; people are usually more comfortable when other people follow the norms. It’s a fast track to getting to the deeper, juicy bits of conversation. The norms can be intuitively learned if you are empathetic, but some of us are distracted or careless and it helps to have a reminder of what the norms are and what purposes they serve. Smalltalk and politesse may be shallow but it’s the shallow parts of conversation where people learn to trust each other. The deeper parts of conversation follow.

sublinear 4y ago
Sure I can elaborate. I'm not saying to disrespect boundaries. I'm saying "norms" are different for each person. What we call "personality" could be described as an accumulation of errors in communicating norms resulting in some amount of uniqueness. There's no choice but to use your intuition. Being "distracted or careless" and defaulting to a set of rules would probably offend most people and make them lose trust. The best conversations and fastest friendships I've ever had got started by skipping the small talk and making a correct guess about their interests or opinions. This is unsettling for some because it's remarkably close to prejudice, but it's just how people are.
- d23 4y ago
  > There's no choice but to use your intuition. There is an alternative: take the time and learn some emotional intelligence if it's not your strong suit. If you seriously think anyone likes your tendency to interrupt, one-up, complete disregard for their level of interest in the topic, and taking 100% of the oxygen without letting them speak, you're deluding yourself.
- klodolph 4y ago
  > I'm saying "norms" are different for each person. We’re using the word “norms” differently, then. Norms are what you use with people you don’t know. They’re based on cultural contexts. The rules of conversations are observations about how people tend to expect conversations to unfold in a particular culture and context. You can approach the norms as descriptive or prescriptive. Both approaches are useful, but you’ll (IMO) get more mileage out of the descriptive approach. If you think of norms as prescriptive rules that you must follow in order to have a good conversation, then they won’t work very well. The same is true if you look at conversations on a smaller scale—we also have rules for grammar and vocabulary, and those rules can also be approached from a descriptive or prescriptive angle. > There's no choice but to use your intuition. This part is flat wrong. You do not have to use only intuition. Human nature is not somehow inexplicable, it is not somehow beyond our power to describe how good conversations work, or what friendship is, or what the nature of love is. Our intuition about other people and our relationships is extremely powerful but it is not all-powerful. This is why people write in to relationship advice columns (or modern analogues like Reddit). People ask for help with their relationships because intuition is not enough. Some things need to be explained with words. You do not need to follow these rules like a robot. They are just there to help you understand how to interact well with other people. The rules are not there so someone who is distracted or careless can more easily make better connections with other people; the rules are there as an explanation for how people who are paying attention will make connections. Again, if you look closer you’ll also find that the grammar we use follows rules too. There are entire sections at the library full of books that explain the grammar of the English language. This isn’t really any different. The books can either explain the rules as directives that you must follow (the prescriptive approach), or explain the rules as observations about how native speakers write and speak English (the descriptive approach). Someone who’s fluent won’t need to think about the rules because they’re internalized, but they’ll still mostly follow the rules anyway. Someone who is clumsy and new at English will generally benefit from studying the rules.

munificent 4y ago

> but generally outside of that there are no such rules. Like music, programming, painting, and many other complex human activities, there are and aren't rules. When you're not a sophisticated practitioner, it's best to treat it like there are rules because those will give you the basic structure to get you from beginner to moderate. Eventually, when you are skilled enough, you learn that the rules are more like guidelines and begin to develop an intuition for when they should be bent or ignored. It's important not to criticize anyone for where they are on their journey. If rules help someone, then telling them "there are no rules" is anti-helpful.

d23 4y ago

> Nope nope nope. What an absurd way to start a comment about something that is essentially conversation 101. These are some of the most basic conversation skills imaginable, and if you think they warrant a "nope nope nope," someone should break it to you that you're probably a terrible conversation partner.

dang 4y ago
Hey, please don't respond to a bad bit by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes everything worse. I was with you on the "nope nope nope" but personal attack and putdowns are not the way to make this point! https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- d23 4y ago
  Thanks. You're right. I can and should do better.
  - dang 4y ago
    Appreciated!