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You can also use multisig holdings to ease this issue. > So you’re saying that to use crypto properly, I have to secure a physical object that grants irrevocab

You can also use multisig holdings to ease this issue. > So you’re saying that to use crypto properly, I have to secure a physical object that grants irrevocable ownership of my wealth? That sounds bad. Welcome to reality. You'll laugh now, but if you want to hold something of lasting value, that's kinda how it works. Gold is physical and requires security. Dollars lose their value to dilution. Other securities incur risks too. Multisig BTC looks downright safe in comparison

fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago
This thread is actually about security and custody, not valuation. Those are different issues, but we can talk about valuation. My crypto has lost more value than any of my other investments. Since crypto (unlike stocks and bonds) doesn’t entitle me to any cash flows, and (unlike dollars) doesn’t allow me to repay any debts, why shouldn’t the value keep dropping?
- reedjosh 4y ago
  Measured using fake dollars. Aka dollars made in other sham Crypto coins and loans. And now the same is happening to the regular markets since higher rates are sucking dollars from the market. My Amazon RSUs are 1/2 of my grant date and falling fast. Shtcoins gonna sht, but BTC hasn't failed in any way, and multisig makes it easier than any other commodity to secure.
  - fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago
    Can you go into more detail about how multisig helps? I assume one of the signatures is my hardware wallet. Who holds the other signature? Do they have SIPC insurance? What happens if my wallet is lost or destroyed?
    - Thorrez 4y ago
      Let's say I have a 3-of-5 multisig. That means there are 5 hardware wallets. I put a hardware wallet in my safe in my house, one in a bank deposit box, and 3 with 3 friends or relatives. Now a thief needs to steal 3 of these to steal the coins. That's going to be hard for a thief to do. If a fire or natural disaster happens, it needs to destroy 3 wallets before I lose my money.
      - knorker 4y ago
        Yes, it's a low risk. Perfectly executed this is maybe a risk of one in ten million. So on a worldwide scale this means that it would happen every day, to someone. But it won't be perfectly executed. Let's say you need to do a transaction while you're moving house. And maybe one of your relatives is in financial trouble. You (probably) don't have the means to do what banks do, and hire an armored transport.
        reedjosh 4y ago
        With collaborative custody companies like unchained, this is actually not as difficult to do right as you're making it seem. Further, unlike an armored truck full of cash, security by obscurity is really easy here. That and for a short duration (say moving houses as you suggest) one could wipe a cold wallet clean and just remember a seed phrase. Personally, I don't have enough wealth to make this sort of maneuver at all worth it, but it's completely do-able.
        knorker 4y ago
        I was once running a service that had redundant ISPs. None of them had had an outage in years. Then we needed to do a change, the first one ever that required disconnecting one of the ISPs. In the 4h window of our planned job the remaining ISP had its first outage that affected us. We had to apologize to many big name customers that depended on us. Since then I don't believe in short SPOFs. You could get hit in the head by a robber on your way moving your furniture, because the robber thinks you may be hauling high value stuff, and lose the passphrase. If you back it up on paper then the unguarded house may be broken into, and they steal the bag that had the paper passphrase. Extremely unlikely that it'll happen to you, but extremely unlikely things happen all the time to someone.
  - Thorrez 4y ago
    What do you mean by fake dollars? We're talking about US dollars. Yes, US dollars do change in value (down), but overall they're more stable in terms of purchasing power than bitcoin.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- pa7x1 4y ago
  Ether is a productive asset, you can get cash-flows through staking. You can also get access to debt and pay it. Aave, MakerDAO, Alchemyx...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
capitalsigma 4y ago
Gold also loses value due to dilution, when more gold is mined.
- reedjosh 4y ago
  You're so silly. Everyone else was reasonable in response or directionally correct. Lol Yeah, more gold is mined in general, but the rate of which is tiny, and the cost of which is way too high. Of course if we achieve multiplanetary whatever then gold may become worth less, but not worthless. Still, that's why BTC may be better, buy then what's better? Digital of physical sarcity. There's a lot of depth and nuance that humans don't have perspective enough to really weigh in on yet here so...
ABCLAW 4y ago
>Welcome to reality. You'll laugh now, but if you want to hold something of lasting value, that's kinda how it works. Yeah, when I own a bunch of equity, real estate and other intangible rights, I do my best to fit them all into my back pocket too. Sure sucks trying to fit a few hundred acres of well placed development ready subdivisions in my jeans, though.
- reedjosh 4y ago
  If these societal constructs fail what good are they? Don't get me wrong, I think they're all probably decent as investments, buy they're a completely different asset class. I put BTC in the Gold/Silver category in that it can be a hedge against societal issues. In this particular moment, I see BTC as a hedge against the ongoing de-dollarization and eventual inflation or plain lack of purchasing power that could cause. I also see it as a means of censorship resistance. Further BTC or any sufficiently distributed money is a way to limit bank/government power since they actually have to tax instead of minting new money.

fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago

This thread is actually about security and custody, not valuation. Those are different issues, but we can talk about valuation. My crypto has lost more value than any of my other investments. Since crypto (unlike stocks and bonds) doesn’t entitle me to any cash flows, and (unlike dollars) doesn’t allow me to repay any debts, why shouldn’t the value keep dropping?

reedjosh 4y ago
Measured using fake dollars. Aka dollars made in other sham Crypto coins and loans. And now the same is happening to the regular markets since higher rates are sucking dollars from the market. My Amazon RSUs are 1/2 of my grant date and falling fast. Shtcoins gonna sht, but BTC hasn't failed in any way, and multisig makes it easier than any other commodity to secure.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago
  Can you go into more detail about how multisig helps? I assume one of the signatures is my hardware wallet. Who holds the other signature? Do they have SIPC insurance? What happens if my wallet is lost or destroyed?
  - Thorrez 4y ago
    Let's say I have a 3-of-5 multisig. That means there are 5 hardware wallets. I put a hardware wallet in my safe in my house, one in a bank deposit box, and 3 with 3 friends or relatives. Now a thief needs to steal 3 of these to steal the coins. That's going to be hard for a thief to do. If a fire or natural disaster happens, it needs to destroy 3 wallets before I lose my money.
    - knorker 4y ago
      Yes, it's a low risk. Perfectly executed this is maybe a risk of one in ten million. So on a worldwide scale this means that it would happen every day, to someone. But it won't be perfectly executed. Let's say you need to do a transaction while you're moving house. And maybe one of your relatives is in financial trouble. You (probably) don't have the means to do what banks do, and hire an armored transport.
      - reedjosh 4y ago
        With collaborative custody companies like unchained, this is actually not as difficult to do right as you're making it seem. Further, unlike an armored truck full of cash, security by obscurity is really easy here. That and for a short duration (say moving houses as you suggest) one could wipe a cold wallet clean and just remember a seed phrase. Personally, I don't have enough wealth to make this sort of maneuver at all worth it, but it's completely do-able.
        knorker 4y ago
        I was once running a service that had redundant ISPs. None of them had had an outage in years. Then we needed to do a change, the first one ever that required disconnecting one of the ISPs. In the 4h window of our planned job the remaining ISP had its first outage that affected us. We had to apologize to many big name customers that depended on us. Since then I don't believe in short SPOFs. You could get hit in the head by a robber on your way moving your furniture, because the robber thinks you may be hauling high value stuff, and lose the passphrase. If you back it up on paper then the unguarded house may be broken into, and they steal the bag that had the paper passphrase. Extremely unlikely that it'll happen to you, but extremely unlikely things happen all the time to someone.
- Thorrez 4y ago
  What do you mean by fake dollars? We're talking about US dollars. Yes, US dollars do change in value (down), but overall they're more stable in terms of purchasing power than bitcoin.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
pa7x1 4y ago
Ether is a productive asset, you can get cash-flows through staking. You can also get access to debt and pay it. Aave, MakerDAO, Alchemyx...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

capitalsigma 4y ago

Gold also loses value due to dilution, when more gold is mined.

reedjosh 4y ago
You're so silly. Everyone else was reasonable in response or directionally correct. Lol Yeah, more gold is mined in general, but the rate of which is tiny, and the cost of which is way too high. Of course if we achieve multiplanetary whatever then gold may become worth less, but not worthless. Still, that's why BTC may be better, buy then what's better? Digital of physical sarcity. There's a lot of depth and nuance that humans don't have perspective enough to really weigh in on yet here so...

ABCLAW 4y ago

>Welcome to reality. You'll laugh now, but if you want to hold something of lasting value, that's kinda how it works. Yeah, when I own a bunch of equity, real estate and other intangible rights, I do my best to fit them all into my back pocket too. Sure sucks trying to fit a few hundred acres of well placed development ready subdivisions in my jeans, though.

reedjosh 4y ago
If these societal constructs fail what good are they? Don't get me wrong, I think they're all probably decent as investments, buy they're a completely different asset class. I put BTC in the Gold/Silver category in that it can be a hedge against societal issues. In this particular moment, I see BTC as a hedge against the ongoing de-dollarization and eventual inflation or plain lack of purchasing power that could cause. I also see it as a means of censorship resistance. Further BTC or any sufficiently distributed money is a way to limit bank/government power since they actually have to tax instead of minting new money.