6 ms·

In a democratic country, why would they imprison Lula for two years if he wasn't guilty?

airstrike 4y ago
But he was guilty, was he not? His conviction was later annulled because the Supreme Court sided with his lawyers' appeal that Lula should have been tried in Brasilia, not the state court in Parana[1] No court has ever declared him quote-unquote "innocent". I'm not saying he should be in jail because I believe in due process, but I am also not saying "he wasn't guilty" from the perspective of the electorate Said differently, "In a democratic country, why would the electorate vote to reelect someone who was objectively guilty of corruption but is currently free due to lousy due process?" is arguably the better question to ask Preemptive dis-disclaimer: I voted for neither candidate and have no skin in the game, so to speak __________ 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56326389 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56326389
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  Judged guilty by multiple judges. Sentences annuled by the supreme court judge who'd go on to censor and persecute Bolsonaro supporters. Lula thanked him for his help in getting him elected during his speech today.
  - hashtag-til 4y ago
    Forgot to mention that said judges got prominent roles in Bolsonaro goverment, literally months after ruling in favour of Lula to be arrested. Apart from all that is always surprising to see folks that work in scientific fields to support Bolsonaro who was completely agains any form of science and education, basically being happy that Brazil would be just a commodities exporter ftw.
    - matheusmoreira 4y ago
      Forgot to mention the piles of evidence and testimony pointing at him, all thrown out and rendered inadmissible by the supreme court judge in his pocket based on some bullshit technicality. > Apart from all that is always surprising to see folks that work in scientific fields to support Bolsonaro who was completely agains any form of science and education Are you a software developer in Brazil? I wonder if you're going to enjoy the regulation of the software developer profession. It's coming.
    - hashtag-til 4y ago
      > Are you a software developer in Brazil? I wonder if you're going to enjoy the regulation of the software developer profession. It's coming. I think this is yet another pointless fearmongering anecdote, that shouldn’t be on this site. Anyway, I am a software developer that is in the market long enough to see that this sort of regulation thing is never going to materialise. I know for a fact that investiment in scientific fields was reduced to near zero during Bolsonaro years and that for me is inadmissible.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    > Lula thanked him for his help in getting him elected during his speech today. No. Lula and the other authorities congratulated him and thanked him for helping conduct fair elections. Those in turn got Lula elected.
    - matheusmoreira 4y ago
      Disproportional pro-Lula censorship before, during and after the election under pretense of "fake news". You call this a fair election?
      - cassianoleal 4y ago
        I call that delusion.
        matheusmoreira 4y ago
        Of course you do.
        cassianoleal 4y ago
        Of course.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  > But he was guilty, was he not? Not according to justice. > No court has ever declared him quote-unquote "innocent". No, because he is innocent until proven guilty. Which he was not, since as yourself has said, due process was not followed - which annuls the validity of the entire thing. There are good reasons why nearly all justice systems in the world follow that principle, and you seem to not only be aware of it but also in favour. There are very few concrete pieces of evidence against him. Unsigned contracts; a lot of declarations from lenience accords (either accuse him or serve tens of years in jail), some were even retracted later; literally the opinion of judges (who had been leading the prosecution - check Geoffrey Robertson's opinions on the matter for an expert analysis); the list of vices, illegalities and other problems with all the processes against him go on. He was politically persecuted because otherwise he would have won the elections against Bolsonaro, and some of the judges in those processes were due for political advantages.
  - airstrike 4y ago
    You seemed to have misread my comment, and I'd wager it's due to your own bias. > Not according to justice. I'm arguing that according to common sense, he is guilty of corruption. I didn't say he should be in jail. In fact, I said the opposite -- he should be free. But I also said why vote for someone who's implicated in so many corruption scandals? The pile of evidence is astounding. I can understand "I voted for him because Bolsonaro is terrible", but I can't understand "I voted for Lula because he's great". I don't think any court in Brazil is "impartial". Corruption is absolutely rampant. The decision over who gets prosecuted and convicted hinges more on the ides of march than on actual merit or graveness of crimes committed. So every politician is, by definition, "politically persecuted". Someone else had asked on this very thread in a now-deleted comment: > Do you believe the judge was impartial in finding him guilty nonetheless? Or are you saying you've seen the evidence itself and would believe he was obviously guilty even if the court had ruled otherwise? The latter. From the perspective of public opinion and objective facts, he was implicated in a variety of corruption scandals. The courts were able to prove wrongdoing. They did so by using illegal means, hence the conviction was annulled. But his wrongdoing wasn't magically undone. From the perspective of the electorate, there's no reason to vote for him if you believe these crimes should bar someone from office.
hashtag-til 4y ago
It is very possible to actually game the system with phony charges, and make them stick. No surprise that the most vocal judge prosecuting these charges was later named as minister by Bolsonaro.
- mannerheim 4y ago
  In that case, it's also possible for Bolsonaro to be imprisoned for multiple years on phony charges and therefore rational for him to leave, is it not?

But he was guilty, was he not? His conviction was later annulled because the Supreme Court sided with his lawyers' appeal that Lula should have been tried in Brasilia, not the state court in Parana[1] No court has ever declared him quote-unquote "innocent". I'm not saying he should be in jail because I believe in due process, but I am also not saying "he wasn't guilty" from the perspective of the electorate Said differently, "In a democratic country, why would the electorate vote to reelect someone who was objectively guilty of corruption but is currently free due to lousy due process?" is arguably the better question to ask Preemptive dis-disclaimer: I voted for neither candidate and have no skin in the game, so to speak __________ 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56326389 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56326389

matheusmoreira 4y ago
Judged guilty by multiple judges. Sentences annuled by the supreme court judge who'd go on to censor and persecute Bolsonaro supporters. Lula thanked him for his help in getting him elected during his speech today.
- hashtag-til 4y ago
  Forgot to mention that said judges got prominent roles in Bolsonaro goverment, literally months after ruling in favour of Lula to be arrested. Apart from all that is always surprising to see folks that work in scientific fields to support Bolsonaro who was completely agains any form of science and education, basically being happy that Brazil would be just a commodities exporter ftw.
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    Forgot to mention the piles of evidence and testimony pointing at him, all thrown out and rendered inadmissible by the supreme court judge in his pocket based on some bullshit technicality. > Apart from all that is always surprising to see folks that work in scientific fields to support Bolsonaro who was completely agains any form of science and education Are you a software developer in Brazil? I wonder if you're going to enjoy the regulation of the software developer profession. It's coming.
  - hashtag-til 4y ago
    > Are you a software developer in Brazil? I wonder if you're going to enjoy the regulation of the software developer profession. It's coming. I think this is yet another pointless fearmongering anecdote, that shouldn’t be on this site. Anyway, I am a software developer that is in the market long enough to see that this sort of regulation thing is never going to materialise. I know for a fact that investiment in scientific fields was reduced to near zero during Bolsonaro years and that for me is inadmissible.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  > Lula thanked him for his help in getting him elected during his speech today. No. Lula and the other authorities congratulated him and thanked him for helping conduct fair elections. Those in turn got Lula elected.
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    Disproportional pro-Lula censorship before, during and after the election under pretense of "fake news". You call this a fair election?
    - cassianoleal 4y ago
      I call that delusion.
      - matheusmoreira 4y ago
        Of course you do.
        cassianoleal 4y ago
        Of course.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
cassianoleal 4y ago
> But he was guilty, was he not? Not according to justice. > No court has ever declared him quote-unquote "innocent". No, because he is innocent until proven guilty. Which he was not, since as yourself has said, due process was not followed - which annuls the validity of the entire thing. There are good reasons why nearly all justice systems in the world follow that principle, and you seem to not only be aware of it but also in favour. There are very few concrete pieces of evidence against him. Unsigned contracts; a lot of declarations from lenience accords (either accuse him or serve tens of years in jail), some were even retracted later; literally the opinion of judges (who had been leading the prosecution - check Geoffrey Robertson's opinions on the matter for an expert analysis); the list of vices, illegalities and other problems with all the processes against him go on. He was politically persecuted because otherwise he would have won the elections against Bolsonaro, and some of the judges in those processes were due for political advantages.
- airstrike 4y ago
  You seemed to have misread my comment, and I'd wager it's due to your own bias. > Not according to justice. I'm arguing that according to common sense, he is guilty of corruption. I didn't say he should be in jail. In fact, I said the opposite -- he should be free. But I also said why vote for someone who's implicated in so many corruption scandals? The pile of evidence is astounding. I can understand "I voted for him because Bolsonaro is terrible", but I can't understand "I voted for Lula because he's great". I don't think any court in Brazil is "impartial". Corruption is absolutely rampant. The decision over who gets prosecuted and convicted hinges more on the ides of march than on actual merit or graveness of crimes committed. So every politician is, by definition, "politically persecuted". Someone else had asked on this very thread in a now-deleted comment: > Do you believe the judge was impartial in finding him guilty nonetheless? Or are you saying you've seen the evidence itself and would believe he was obviously guilty even if the court had ruled otherwise? The latter. From the perspective of public opinion and objective facts, he was implicated in a variety of corruption scandals. The courts were able to prove wrongdoing. They did so by using illegal means, hence the conviction was annulled. But his wrongdoing wasn't magically undone. From the perspective of the electorate, there's no reason to vote for him if you believe these crimes should bar someone from office.

hashtag-til 4y ago

It is very possible to actually game the system with phony charges, and make them stick. No surprise that the most vocal judge prosecuting these charges was later named as minister by Bolsonaro.

mannerheim 4y ago
In that case, it's also possible for Bolsonaro to be imprisoned for multiple years on phony charges and therefore rational for him to leave, is it not?