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Why does someone’s position need to change? That implies that somebody is wrong, and that’s not necessarily the case. More often, the “wrongness” comes from hav

Why does someone’s position need to change? That implies that somebody is wrong, and that’s not necessarily the case. More often, the “wrongness” comes from having a different point of view. For example, it’s easy to say “fuck cars” when you live in the city and they are only polluting, noisy nuisances that are, at best, optional for living your life. But when you live where I do, not having a car means a significant number of unreasonable changes to your life.

hattmall 4y ago
It's not a binary. The position doesn't have to change from one to the other. It's that with more information from each side, both positions should evolve. That's where progress can be actualized. Echo chambers don't get results, they just echo.
ehnto 4y ago
Great example, because people saying "fuck cars" probably aren't talking about your cars or your situation. They mean the cities. They too have a different point of view. What discussion is good at is allowing us to talk about topics even with differing points of view, but a like/dislike button only rewards or disuades what you said. There is no opportunity for the meeting of minds, and it makes an echochamber. Had you seen a video titled "Fuck cars" and disliked it, Youtube would a stop showing you that content, and now you only get pro-car content. Or someone who loves bikes sees the video, they like it, they would never get pro-car content, and would never see your point of view. No one is challenged, no one is brought closer together in understanding.
- feet 4y ago
  Generally from my experience, people saying "fuck cars" aren't just talking about cars alone. They're talking about all poorly designed towns, cities, and infrastructure that completely cater to cars while disregarding the necessity of human movement, transportation, and health.
- TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
  So get rid of pre-fabbed "individualization" by the platform, and allow individuals to choose what they do&don't want to see. This usually cuts ads way down, so I see why they don't do it, but it would fix the issues of bubbles. (Assuming bubbles and division is not what they wanted in the first place).
poszlem 4y ago
Isn't the whole point that you can change the position of a person who says "fuck cars" by talking to them and telling them why some people need them? If they are not trolls, learning about how much of the world is reliant on cars should absolutely change their position.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  My experience is that people who say "fuck cars" are entirely aware of how much of world is absolutely reliant upon them.
pessimizer 4y ago
> Why does someone’s position need to change? That implies that somebody is wrong, and that’s not necessarily the case. Depends on your purpose in talking. My purposes are to inform people of things, to request information about things, to ask people to do things, to play, or to indirectly express approval(hug) or disapproval(hiss.) If I'm arguing with somebody, I should either be improving the quality of their information or improving the quality of my own, or determined to convince somebody that they should do something. If I'm playing, by definition I can't be seriously arguing. The only people who care about my approval or disapproval as such are my parents and other loved ones; to other people the news about my current feelings as an individual aren't important, and if other people who didn't care about me found them important, they wouldn't want innuendo, they'd just want the facts. If we have two incompatible opinions about something, yet we have no desire to bring them into agreement, why are we even arguing about it? Surely there's something better we could be doing. I think a lot of people have started to think that the internet loves or hates them personally, and are desperate for its approval in an unhealthy way. The fact that there's money to be made in being noticed on the internet makes the situation even worse. > For example, it’s easy to say “fuck cars” when you live in the city and they are only polluting, noisy nuisances that are, at best, optional for living your life. But when you live where I do, not having a car means a significant number of unreasonable changes to your life. "It's easy to say that if you're you" isn't part of any legitimate argument. It's just extraneous ad hominem that people add while making (or eliding past) an argument. It also doesn't get you out of explaining "significant number" or especially "unreasonable," which begs the question.
machina_ex_deus 4y ago
Ever heard of someone saying "fuck cars" in person? Where the conversation just stood on "fuck cars", and stopped there? When someone on the internet says "fuck cars", it's because he's expecting to get some dopamine from getting liked by similarly minded friends who also hate cars. If his purpose was to have a discussion, to convince you, it wouldn't be "fuck cars", it would be "cars are polluting". And even if he's an arrogant asshole in real life, you could explain how cars are useful to you, and ask what he's suggesting to do. Maybe 1% are such total careless assholes you shouldn't be talking to them, but others will try to come up with an answer, and if they fail to give it, they will remember it.
Karrot_Kream 4y ago
The "fuck cars" position is a great example. I advocate for pedestrian and cyclist friendly infrastructure for our city at our local planning board. The quality of online discourse even for people that share my position is terrible. There's a lot to discuss like fire apparatus access or construction labor shortages causing backups, street classifications, but the online discourse has so little of that. A lot of these folks are driven by YouTubers who do advocacy work for those unfamiliar with the debate. But actually showing up at a planning meeting with that kind of rhetoric makes no sense. And this isn't even beginning to engage with people with different positions on road infrastructure. It's the double edged sword of the internet that raises awareness for issues but loses nuance because nuance loses engagement.

hattmall 4y ago

It's not a binary. The position doesn't have to change from one to the other. It's that with more information from each side, both positions should evolve. That's where progress can be actualized. Echo chambers don't get results, they just echo.

ehnto 4y ago

Great example, because people saying "fuck cars" probably aren't talking about your cars or your situation. They mean the cities. They too have a different point of view. What discussion is good at is allowing us to talk about topics even with differing points of view, but a like/dislike button only rewards or disuades what you said. There is no opportunity for the meeting of minds, and it makes an echochamber. Had you seen a video titled "Fuck cars" and disliked it, Youtube would a stop showing you that content, and now you only get pro-car content. Or someone who loves bikes sees the video, they like it, they would never get pro-car content, and would never see your point of view. No one is challenged, no one is brought closer together in understanding.

feet 4y ago
Generally from my experience, people saying "fuck cars" aren't just talking about cars alone. They're talking about all poorly designed towns, cities, and infrastructure that completely cater to cars while disregarding the necessity of human movement, transportation, and health.
TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
So get rid of pre-fabbed "individualization" by the platform, and allow individuals to choose what they do&don't want to see. This usually cuts ads way down, so I see why they don't do it, but it would fix the issues of bubbles. (Assuming bubbles and division is not what they wanted in the first place).

poszlem 4y ago

Isn't the whole point that you can change the position of a person who says "fuck cars" by talking to them and telling them why some people need them? If they are not trolls, learning about how much of the world is reliant on cars should absolutely change their position.

sokoloff 4y ago
My experience is that people who say "fuck cars" are entirely aware of how much of world is absolutely reliant upon them.

pessimizer 4y ago

> Why does someone’s position need to change? That implies that somebody is wrong, and that’s not necessarily the case. Depends on your purpose in talking. My purposes are to inform people of things, to request information about things, to ask people to do things, to play, or to indirectly express approval(hug) or disapproval(hiss.) If I'm arguing with somebody, I should either be improving the quality of their information or improving the quality of my own, or determined to convince somebody that they should do something. If I'm playing, by definition I can't be seriously arguing. The only people who care about my approval or disapproval as such are my parents and other loved ones; to other people the news about my current feelings as an individual aren't important, and if other people who didn't care about me found them important, they wouldn't want innuendo, they'd just want the facts. If we have two incompatible opinions about something, yet we have no desire to bring them into agreement, why are we even arguing about it? Surely there's something better we could be doing. I think a lot of people have started to think that the internet loves or hates them personally, and are desperate for its approval in an unhealthy way. The fact that there's money to be made in being noticed on the internet makes the situation even worse. > For example, it’s easy to say “fuck cars” when you live in the city and they are only polluting, noisy nuisances that are, at best, optional for living your life. But when you live where I do, not having a car means a significant number of unreasonable changes to your life. "It's easy to say that if you're you" isn't part of any legitimate argument. It's just extraneous ad hominem that people add while making (or eliding past) an argument. It also doesn't get you out of explaining "significant number" or especially "unreasonable," which begs the question.

machina_ex_deus 4y ago

Ever heard of someone saying "fuck cars" in person? Where the conversation just stood on "fuck cars", and stopped there? When someone on the internet says "fuck cars", it's because he's expecting to get some dopamine from getting liked by similarly minded friends who also hate cars. If his purpose was to have a discussion, to convince you, it wouldn't be "fuck cars", it would be "cars are polluting". And even if he's an arrogant asshole in real life, you could explain how cars are useful to you, and ask what he's suggesting to do. Maybe 1% are such total careless assholes you shouldn't be talking to them, but others will try to come up with an answer, and if they fail to give it, they will remember it.

Karrot_Kream 4y ago

The "fuck cars" position is a great example. I advocate for pedestrian and cyclist friendly infrastructure for our city at our local planning board. The quality of online discourse even for people that share my position is terrible. There's a lot to discuss like fire apparatus access or construction labor shortages causing backups, street classifications, but the online discourse has so little of that. A lot of these folks are driven by YouTubers who do advocacy work for those unfamiliar with the debate. But actually showing up at a planning meeting with that kind of rhetoric makes no sense. And this isn't even beginning to engage with people with different positions on road infrastructure. It's the double edged sword of the internet that raises awareness for issues but loses nuance because nuance loses engagement.