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Your comment here is pretty typical of a medium grade HN response. That is to say: * Thorough and well thought through. Well written (unlike, say, Reddit) * P

by Zhyl 4y ago

Your comment here is pretty typical of a medium grade HN response. That is to say: * Thorough and well thought through. Well written (unlike, say, Reddit) * Polite, doesn't attack the person you're responding to or represent their position as ridiculous However * Entirely rooted in personal experience and often missing the broader point or use case being described in OP. In this case I can see that you're describing why you yourself are negative on the Linux desktop (which is on topic), but responses like this miss the context of Steam Deck, Proton and imply that the issues found are never going to improve, to the point you are writing off the whole concept of a Linux platform for all use cases. On HN this seems to appear a lot and is used very often to stifle tangential discussions. A thread about how many games now run on Proton will have at least one and likely many people writing a list of all the technical issues they've had with Linux recently and then either explicitly or implicitly saying that as a result Linux is not ready or not suitable for case stated in the article.

moonchrome 4y ago
But steam deck is not a desktop - it's a console. Linux on the desktop usually means a Windows replacement - historically, and the most relevant meaning to me personally. The reason I'm not hopeful things will improve is same as always - not enough critical mass to get the momentum going. I was buying a PCIe wifi card a few months ago and wanted to check support for Linux in case I try again. There were zero options locally where I could reliably determine that onboard BT would work, and there were like 5 modern cards available. I just don't see what commercial entity is going to push Linux desktop development ? Linux server is mostly a result of big players working together to commoditize the OS, scaling with commercial os on the backed would get prohibitively expensive immediately. Don't see where the desktop push will come from.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  Deck seems like a desktop to me. Has x86 hardware, all the same ports as the venerable Macbook Pro and a nice beefy GPU built-into the machine. If the Deck ships with KDE installed and accessible in the settings, I think it's safe to call it a desktop.
- jcelerier 4y ago
  idk looks pretty desktop-y to me: https://youtu.be/PxLB5khCmGo?t=422 https://youtu.be/PxLB5khCmGo?t=422
  - wankle 4y ago
    I'm not into consoles but if I were, that video would encourage me to get the steam deck.
- Zhyl 4y ago
  The Steam Deck is a full PC that boots into a console UI. You can switch it into desktop mode which uses KDE - a very popular desktop environment. You can dock the Stem Deck using a USB-C hub to connect to a monitor, keyboard and mouse. This is a use case that is supported by Valve and Valve sells a first party docking station to facilitate this. There have been multiple people citing on the Steam Deck subreddit that they regularly use the Steam Deck in this way and a few even saying they use it as their daily driver. It's a laptop in a handheld form factor. That is all.
- Zhyl 4y ago
  It looks like you edited your comment to expand, so I'll address the new points separately. I think the first thing to note is going back to my OP in that I simply don't understand why people like yourself will go to such lengths to argue against Linux desktop, citing all the issues you've had with it when I don't see this kind of kick back against any other technology or even any other concept more widely. If people don't like something or don't think it'll work they'll either ignore the thread or post a much shorter response expressing doubts. I think the only thing that I saw get to a similar stage was crypto, but it seems like the crypto community split off into their own little world whereas the Linux communities still stay in a fairly close orbit to technical circles. I think secondly this speaks to another comment I made elsewhere where the counter-arguments for Linux desktop are firmly rooted in personal experience. Here you're also explicitly saying that the issues you're having you don't think are going to improve. But Linux had improved. It's improved massively in the last 5-10 years. 2 years ago I couldn't play Apex Legends. 5 years ago I couldn't play Direct X games without a lot of effort. 10 years ago I couldn't get YouTube or Netflix. Things are improving and whilst your personal opinion may still be that Linux still won't be viable, the sheer number of people that comment in a similar vain means that there is a negative smog around Linux that stops or discourages more positive discussion.
  - moonchrome 4y ago
    The only reason I'm adding negative feedback is because every time I read optimistic feedback on forums I get hopeful and try it - only to get hit by a cold shower. I'll try again - I see that Fedora dropped a new release, but I suspect I'll get similar results. So I'm not against Linux desktop - I'm just saying the people singing it's praises probably have different expectations from me so I'm trying to add another viewpoint (because it's always subjective experiences in these threads - I can't remember reading statistics about hardware coverage and similar news)
ratsmack 4y ago
Most people never mention the hardware issue in regards to installing a successful Linux desktop. The expectation that all hardware combinations will just work is a little bit optimistic. I've run Linux desktops ever since X11 was available, but I always research the hardware aspect prior to installing a distribution and have always had a good experience (not perfect, but good).

by Zhyl 4y ago

moonchrome 4y ago

But steam deck is not a desktop - it's a console. Linux on the desktop usually means a Windows replacement - historically, and the most relevant meaning to me personally. The reason I'm not hopeful things will improve is same as always - not enough critical mass to get the momentum going. I was buying a PCIe wifi card a few months ago and wanted to check support for Linux in case I try again. There were zero options locally where I could reliably determine that onboard BT would work, and there were like 5 modern cards available. I just don't see what commercial entity is going to push Linux desktop development ? Linux server is mostly a result of big players working together to commoditize the OS, scaling with commercial os on the backed would get prohibitively expensive immediately. Don't see where the desktop push will come from.

smoldesu 4y ago
Deck seems like a desktop to me. Has x86 hardware, all the same ports as the venerable Macbook Pro and a nice beefy GPU built-into the machine. If the Deck ships with KDE installed and accessible in the settings, I think it's safe to call it a desktop.
jcelerier 4y ago
idk looks pretty desktop-y to me: https://youtu.be/PxLB5khCmGo?t=422 https://youtu.be/PxLB5khCmGo?t=422
- wankle 4y ago
  I'm not into consoles but if I were, that video would encourage me to get the steam deck.
Zhyl 4y ago
The Steam Deck is a full PC that boots into a console UI. You can switch it into desktop mode which uses KDE - a very popular desktop environment. You can dock the Stem Deck using a USB-C hub to connect to a monitor, keyboard and mouse. This is a use case that is supported by Valve and Valve sells a first party docking station to facilitate this. There have been multiple people citing on the Steam Deck subreddit that they regularly use the Steam Deck in this way and a few even saying they use it as their daily driver. It's a laptop in a handheld form factor. That is all.
Zhyl 4y ago
It looks like you edited your comment to expand, so I'll address the new points separately. I think the first thing to note is going back to my OP in that I simply don't understand why people like yourself will go to such lengths to argue against Linux desktop, citing all the issues you've had with it when I don't see this kind of kick back against any other technology or even any other concept more widely. If people don't like something or don't think it'll work they'll either ignore the thread or post a much shorter response expressing doubts. I think the only thing that I saw get to a similar stage was crypto, but it seems like the crypto community split off into their own little world whereas the Linux communities still stay in a fairly close orbit to technical circles. I think secondly this speaks to another comment I made elsewhere where the counter-arguments for Linux desktop are firmly rooted in personal experience. Here you're also explicitly saying that the issues you're having you don't think are going to improve. But Linux had improved. It's improved massively in the last 5-10 years. 2 years ago I couldn't play Apex Legends. 5 years ago I couldn't play Direct X games without a lot of effort. 10 years ago I couldn't get YouTube or Netflix. Things are improving and whilst your personal opinion may still be that Linux still won't be viable, the sheer number of people that comment in a similar vain means that there is a negative smog around Linux that stops or discourages more positive discussion.
- moonchrome 4y ago
  The only reason I'm adding negative feedback is because every time I read optimistic feedback on forums I get hopeful and try it - only to get hit by a cold shower. I'll try again - I see that Fedora dropped a new release, but I suspect I'll get similar results. So I'm not against Linux desktop - I'm just saying the people singing it's praises probably have different expectations from me so I'm trying to add another viewpoint (because it's always subjective experiences in these threads - I can't remember reading statistics about hardware coverage and similar news)

ratsmack 4y ago

Most people never mention the hardware issue in regards to installing a successful Linux desktop. The expectation that all hardware combinations will just work is a little bit optimistic. I've run Linux desktops ever since X11 was available, but I always research the hardware aspect prior to installing a distribution and have always had a good experience (not perfect, but good).