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I've attacked it as a viable option because linux users seem to handwave some of the things that make it a non viable option for a large % of the population. I

I've attacked it as a viable option because linux users seem to handwave some of the things that make it a non viable option for a large % of the population. I've tried linux 3 or so times over the years, always the "friendly" distros. I've dropped it each time because while yes, things do work, they tend to STOP working. Drivers, updates, compatibility lag, whatever it is, linux often has me "under the hood" trying to fix stuff that is literally never an issue on another OS. And i say this as someone who wants linux to be a thing. It's unquestionably healthy for linux to be a real option, ESPECIALLY given windows penchant for trying to sneak in more and more tracking and ads, but even as someone decently techy, I have frequently found linux to feel like gambling, with a question of "will it work today, or am I about to go on a 10 min to multihour rabbit hole hunt to fix something"

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binkHN 4y ago
This is why I'm using Linux in the form of ChromeOS more nowadays; the updates are handled, generally, well by Google and the virtualized Linux container running on the side is quite stable because of its virtualized environment.
twothamendment 4y ago
I've been using Linux as my daily driver for over a decade. I used to really fight things like multiple monitors, but things for better. My current laptop is an HP Envy from Costco and I was kind of shocked that everything just worked, even the fingerprint reader. And then it happened - one day my brightness keys quit working. Why? I have no idea and haven't spent time to find out. You are correct, it still happens, but it has been rare for me where it used to be common.
- Zhyl 4y ago
  As a counter point, I've had multiple issues with my HP Envy on Windows that are similar (keys stopping working, random glitches in software).
smoldesu 4y ago
It's an unfortunate side-effect of unreliable packaging systems like pacman. Systems like Fedora Silverblue and NixOS offer fascinating (if incomplete) glimpses into how this can be fixed, though: - Fedora Silverblue wants to reduce software reliance on the OS as a runtime. Relying on Flatpaks allows you to freeze most dependencies in-place and have a fully reproducible (if a bit redundant) runtime environment. - NixOS wants to eliminate software reliance on the OS by removing the OS altogether. A default NixOS install only has a symlink to sh in the /bin folder, everything else needs to be dynamically loaded by the package manager through the Nix Store (big nuclear soup folder with hashed/labelled package tarballs). Both OSes have some rough edges that make them hard to recommend, but it does suggest a silver lining for Linux packaging in the future. It's definitely a problem, just more of a distro-specific one rather than a Linux-specific one.
ubermonkey 4y ago
For a number of hobbies -- mostly but not entirely male-coded -- there is the hobby itself, and then the hobby of hacking around on the hobby. I got an espresso machine last year. I was looking for a grinder. A huge chunk of online coffee folks suggested buying a weird grinder from China and swapping out burr sets and and and and ... and all I wanted was a turnkey grinder. I just wanted coffee. I didn't need to make a hobby of the equipment itself. This also exists with motorcycles. I just want to ride a motorcycle. I don't have any interest in the endless mod culture of motorcycles. And so Linux on the desktop. Linux on the desktop is great if you enjoy having to actively sysadmin your work environment, but it's shit if you just want to get some work done. The people who run it full time are people, mostly, who like the hacking part of the hobby in addition to the using part of the hobby. And I don't see that changing. There was definitely a window in the late 90s when this could've been different, but then Apple moved to OS X, and I think that window closed forever.
- wankle 4y ago
  "Linux on the desktop is great if you enjoy having to actively sysadmin your work environment, but it's shit if you just want to get some work done." My wife who is non-technical uses it to get stuff done, all that she ever did on Windows, no issues after years of use. I know of other non-technical users who use it without issue. They probably know many who use it without issue. So your case seems to be isolated and unusual.
  - evilduck 4y ago
    Try using a new RTX GPU or a Wifi 6E network to it's fullest, or two screens with different scaling with Linux. You will not have a nice experience.
    - wankle 4y ago
      Using a new Dell Alienware PC now, first thing I did, install Ubuntu, wiping Windows. RTX 3080 is the GPU. Been using nvidia for years, they rock. I game on it using Steam Proton which also rocks, and run other native Linux games. Haven't needed to try the WiFi on it yet. Only use one screen, not sure why I'd need two.
Zhyl 4y ago
I think the issue I would have with your sentiment here is that you say Linux users are hand wavy about things that make it non viable, but I also see your main argument as having a fair amount of handwave, especially the phrase "they tend to". This isn't to say that your complaints aren't valid or that you're misrepresenting your own experience, but it doesn't further the discussion and depending on the context with which you are raising it can be seen as a disingenuous way of trying to discredit or undermine Linux as a viable option. That is to say, in isolation your comment is fine. If a thread on a topic that is related to the Linux desktop only features people citing their unspecific list of issues with desktop Linux then it stop being a reasonable good faith discussion and starts becoming ideological Linux bashing.
jcelerier 4y ago
> , linux often has me "under the hood" trying to fix stuff that is literally never an issue on another OS. no, on other OSes you just cannot fix it. e.g. for instance on my computer I have a win32 install and for some reason on it the ethernet network speed seems locked to 100mbit-ish while on linux I get my gigabit ethernet performance. what can I do to debug this on windows when i tried the usual install / remove drivers, etc etc ? absolutely nothing, I just learn to live with the issue like most people on that OS.
- jameshart 4y ago
  If you have a windows install and your Ethernet card isn’t getting full performance a normal person will claim on your manufacturer’s warranty, or drop it off with the geek squad. They won’t ‘troubleshoot’. If they’re running Linux, they can’t even do those things.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    A normal person would have no clue they aren't getting full performance. If it's too slow they call the internet provider or buy a new computer or live with it and hate computers or ask a teckie friend. If they can't login or the screen breaks they run to geek squad. Under no condition will they claim manufacture warranty on an internal part without a techie recommending this and removing the card/part for them
- incone123 4y ago
  I had an issue with a wifi card in my self-built win 10 PC and I'd agree there's nothing I could do myself to fix it. I'm not competent to even help write drivers but at least in theory the Linux community could write me a new one if the same issue happened on Linux. But the reason I'm on windows in the first place is that I left Linux several years ago when I bought a second monitor and Linux would sometimes work great but sometimes fail to display anything on either of them at startup. That just was not useable. I tried again about a year after and same issue - I would like to go back to Linux but I don't have time to roll the dice on being able to start work in the morning or have to ssh in from another device to figure out what happened to my display.
tluyben2 4y ago
Been using Linux daily on laptops for 20 years. I haven’t ‘tinkered’ with anything for over 10 years of that. I install Debian, get my keys on it and then just clone my tools from git and run install. It’ll set it up so I have (far more) battery life than windows, have all my tooling and software. I upgraded laptops for a very long time without issues. I do pick my hardware for Linux support and I don’t care about gaming. I have really no idea what you or others mean by this? What breaks? Do you have blog posts with details? What do you do differently than me? I know some use cases are different than mine so I wouldn’t know them, but I always wonder when I see people complaining about things like battery life (I consistently have at least double or more for Linux than on Windows for the same workloads across laptops, both 32 (aka old) and 64 bit), missing or broken drivers (I don’t use gpus locally) etc. My non tech acquaintances have issues with Windows all the time but they just ignore them. Seems when installing Linux people suddenly want perfection?
wankle 4y ago
"I've dropped it each time because while yes, things do work, they tend to STOP working." I've used Linux on the desktop since 1994. In all that time I recall one breaking update on Debian affecting the wireless network driver. I've used Ubuntu since 2006 and never had any issues like you describe. That is across multiple machine types from Dell, Lenovo and HP. The same is true for my wife who is non-technical and has no issues using Linux (Ubuntu). As another case in addition to the multiple I mentioned already, I'd vouch for the majority of Android phones running fine without issues caused by new updates, I mention Android since there are people who use their phone exclusively for computing, and oddly. Summary, use Ubuntu on the desktop, pick a decent manufacturer like Dell, HP or Lenovo (I prefer Dell and/or Alienware from Dell or Lenovo) and maybe pick one that sells with Linux or made for Linux to further enhance your success. I've heard System 76 makes good systems too.
- twosdai 4y ago
  I use system76 pop os as a main driver for my desktop. There is a learning curve to do everything and i do occasionally switch to windows for some games. I am a senior engineer as well. I think the biggest thing holding linux desktops back is not technical really it's a human element, like the services to talk on a forum, having things setup ahead of time for the user etc... Windows has a learning curve which people went through if you want to switch to Linux you need to learn. Just as if you start on Linux and wanted to switch to windows you'd have a learning curve.
  - evilduck 4y ago
    I use PopOS on a newer Legion 5i. Randomly the BT stopped working after a kernel update last year. Sound and wifi will sometimes not work after resuming from sleep even now. This is my average desktop Linux life experience. Some will trot out their anecdotes that they've never experienced even one issue in decades and others will have showstopping issues at the installer. Both will be right. Anything that doesn't ship with Linux preinstalled is a total crapshoot in my experience of 25 years of using Linux on desktops and laptops. Chromebooks and Android and SteamDecks prove it can be reliable, but it takes coordinated manufacturer effort. Anything else is always a gamble of current support or future updates breaking something that previously was working. Linux issues aren't necessarily harder to solve than Windows issues, but since software compatibility still remains the motivation for average users to switch still remains minimal, and if you recommend the switch you instantly become that person's IT support.
tluyben2 4y ago
As a counter point, I installed Ubuntu on a 5 year old laptop someone gave me because they bought a tablet and gifted it to a computer illiterate friend whose Windows laptop died. He didn’t notice it wasn’t windows and he has had 0 issues. This was over 5 years ago. He uses it for everything and takes it everywhere. Like I said in another reply: do you have details on what happens when things break. I have never seen it myself and maybe the community can prevent it if they would know.
- wincy 4y ago
  My wife didn’t mind Ubuntu on her laptop, except for the initial install had an upside down screen so I had to reconfigure the gyroscope to know which way is up and down, and when her RAM would get full, the system would just lock up and she’d have to restart. She could even use Microsoft Teams for calls with our daughters doctors! To be fair, these laptops were quite old and I installed windows on another identical laptop, but Windows had totally broken Bluetooth and you couldn’t change the display brightness, which was way more annoying than the relatively minor Ubuntu issue with RAM. I never managed to fix those issues on Windows, so I’m not bashing on Linux here. Eventually I bought her an M1 MacBook Air. She hasn’t complained once.
wintermutestwin 4y ago
>they tend to STOP working The worst part is that when they do stop working, I have forgotten the horrible kludge of steps I had to go through to get something working the first time around. Of course the answers are out there, but finding the one answer that worked on the distro I used? Needle, meet haystack. I feel this is due to a reliance on CLI to do almost everything. CLI wouldn't be so problematic if those steps worked on every distro. This is the reason that fragmentation is holding LoD back IMO.
DrBazza 4y ago
> I've dropped it each time because while yes, things do work, they tend to STOP working And over 25 years of Windows updates, I've had breakages too. And I've had disastrous upgrades from XP->7, and 8->10. I'd say I get one bad driver update with Windows every couple of years or so. Windows just seems to not break the main things like the desktop. On the other hand, I've run a linux desktop for quite a few years: Arch/sway for 2yrs, Ubuntu/kde for 4yrs, and Fedora/gnome for a year. I had zero problems with Arch, a few problems with Ubuntu, and zero with Fedora. The year of the linux desktop is now largely irrelevant because so many people are using other devices. Still, developers are now using it as their primary driver, as you can develop for the web or for Android on it.
GTP 4y ago
All OSes can stop working, or have a component that stops working. What I think is happening here, is that we are more forgiving towards our preferred OS. When something stops working on Windows, I first complain about yet another thing not working in Windows, and then I fix it. When instead something breaks on my favorite Linux distro (not naming it intentionally to avoid a distro war) I just fix it. In my experience, I have less problems on Linux than on Windows, but different users have different experiences and value different aspects of an OS.
flippinburgers 4y ago
I've used linux for two decades and enjoyed every year of it. The recent 7 years or so have been as painless as windows in my experience. Honestly, handling updates on linux has been better I would say.
dmix 4y ago
> I've tried linux 3 or so times over the years, always the "friendly" distros. I did the same thing, it wasn't until I used Arch Linux that I really started to understand Linux. It turned I wasn't looking for a wannabe-MacOS distro, I just really liked a minimalist Gnome 3.12+ (when Gnome hit the sweet spot) or i3 based Linux that had zero background processes, installed programs, or anything that I didn't opt-in to. If you want MacOS just use MacOS. On Arch I could run `top` and know what everything is which had amazing performance and battery benefits. Also learning Linux deeply (ie, the directory structures and meaning of /usr /etc, logging, managing services with SystemD, managing diskspace size, proper bash scripting w/ all of the unix tools, etc) really helped me at my job as a programmer ssh'ing into servers.
Nursie 4y ago
Weird, I’ve been using it as a professional desktop for about 20 years now, with a few forays into MacOS for a couple of years at a time thrown in. I can count issues like you describe on the fingers of one hand. MacOS is generally very stable, of course, because they also control the hardware, but I have experienced unexpected reboots on MacBooks. I find windows pretty frustrating and opaque, I certainly don’t know how anyone could work on it effectively. Having to find and install third party software packages just to get hardware going is a right nightmare. Recently my windows 11 (I keep it around for gaming) was complaining that it couldn’t activate a safety feature, memory consistency checking or something, due to outdated drivers, and listed stuff for hardware I no longer owned. I ended up on a multi-hour trip down the google rabbit hole to try to fix that because there were no updates and the official line is people should never uninstall any drivers! All I’m saying is YMMV, maybe you just grok windows but not Linux. It’s not universal though.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
> I've attacked it as a viable option because linux users seem to handwave some of the things that make it a non viable option for a large % of the population. Yep, exactly this. A portion of the Linux Desktop community is so high on its own farts that it can't tolerate the idea that people might have legitimate reasons for not using Linux as their desktop. If you have a problematic use case, their suggestion is to get a different use case.
- Xelynega 4y ago
  Do you have anything to add to the discussion other than calling people "high on [their] own farts"?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    No more to contribute then those who add their anecdotal experience of having used Linux on the desktop for 20 years "flawlessly" or that their grandma uses it and doesn't have any issues as a response to someone talking about how things they need don't actually work. If you want to chastise me for echoing parent's sentiment then that's fine. I'm used to getting grief literally any time I complain about anything in Linux. Remarkably, the same is not true when I complain about Windows. Funny that.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- LeFantome 4y ago
  What use cases?
fsflover 4y ago
> I've tried linux 3 or so times over the years, always the "friendly" distros. In 2023, you should not try as many distros as possible. They are all similar enough. You should try hardware designed for Linux, instead of one forcing Linux developers to reverse-engineer WiFi and suspend to make it work. Ideally, try it preinstalled. I am happy with my Librem 15, no tinkering is ever required.
bsder 4y ago
> I've dropped it each time because while yes, things do work, they tend to STOP working. Drivers, updates, compatibility lag, whatever it is, linux often has me "under the hood" trying to fix stuff that is literally never an issue on another OS. It's funny because this is, in fact, my reason for dumping Windows and macOS. The only difference is that I can't open the hood if I'm on Windows or macOS. So, if something breaks there, I'm simply screwed. Between forced upgrades on macOS (sure, you can keep your OS back, but things like XCode, for example, will do their damndest to force you to upgrade) and random "Windows Update" stupidity ("Nope, no work for you! I must spend 30 minutes upgrading. Oh, by the way, do you want to upgrade to Windows 11 and we put the GTFO button in 6 point italic on your other monitor and we'll harass you again tomorrow.) I finally decamped for Linux permanently and haven't regretted it one iota.

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binkHN 4y ago

This is why I'm using Linux in the form of ChromeOS more nowadays; the updates are handled, generally, well by Google and the virtualized Linux container running on the side is quite stable because of its virtualized environment.

twothamendment 4y ago

I've been using Linux as my daily driver for over a decade. I used to really fight things like multiple monitors, but things for better. My current laptop is an HP Envy from Costco and I was kind of shocked that everything just worked, even the fingerprint reader. And then it happened - one day my brightness keys quit working. Why? I have no idea and haven't spent time to find out. You are correct, it still happens, but it has been rare for me where it used to be common.

Zhyl 4y ago
As a counter point, I've had multiple issues with my HP Envy on Windows that are similar (keys stopping working, random glitches in software).

smoldesu 4y ago

It's an unfortunate side-effect of unreliable packaging systems like pacman. Systems like Fedora Silverblue and NixOS offer fascinating (if incomplete) glimpses into how this can be fixed, though: - Fedora Silverblue wants to reduce software reliance on the OS as a runtime. Relying on Flatpaks allows you to freeze most dependencies in-place and have a fully reproducible (if a bit redundant) runtime environment. - NixOS wants to eliminate software reliance on the OS by removing the OS altogether. A default NixOS install only has a symlink to sh in the /bin folder, everything else needs to be dynamically loaded by the package manager through the Nix Store (big nuclear soup folder with hashed/labelled package tarballs). Both OSes have some rough edges that make them hard to recommend, but it does suggest a silver lining for Linux packaging in the future. It's definitely a problem, just more of a distro-specific one rather than a Linux-specific one.

ubermonkey 4y ago

For a number of hobbies -- mostly but not entirely male-coded -- there is the hobby itself, and then the hobby of hacking around on the hobby. I got an espresso machine last year. I was looking for a grinder. A huge chunk of online coffee folks suggested buying a weird grinder from China and swapping out burr sets and and and and ... and all I wanted was a turnkey grinder. I just wanted coffee. I didn't need to make a hobby of the equipment itself. This also exists with motorcycles. I just want to ride a motorcycle. I don't have any interest in the endless mod culture of motorcycles. And so Linux on the desktop. Linux on the desktop is great if you enjoy having to actively sysadmin your work environment, but it's shit if you just want to get some work done. The people who run it full time are people, mostly, who like the hacking part of the hobby in addition to the using part of the hobby. And I don't see that changing. There was definitely a window in the late 90s when this could've been different, but then Apple moved to OS X, and I think that window closed forever.

wankle 4y ago
"Linux on the desktop is great if you enjoy having to actively sysadmin your work environment, but it's shit if you just want to get some work done." My wife who is non-technical uses it to get stuff done, all that she ever did on Windows, no issues after years of use. I know of other non-technical users who use it without issue. They probably know many who use it without issue. So your case seems to be isolated and unusual.
- evilduck 4y ago
  Try using a new RTX GPU or a Wifi 6E network to it's fullest, or two screens with different scaling with Linux. You will not have a nice experience.
  - wankle 4y ago
    Using a new Dell Alienware PC now, first thing I did, install Ubuntu, wiping Windows. RTX 3080 is the GPU. Been using nvidia for years, they rock. I game on it using Steam Proton which also rocks, and run other native Linux games. Haven't needed to try the WiFi on it yet. Only use one screen, not sure why I'd need two.

Zhyl 4y ago

I think the issue I would have with your sentiment here is that you say Linux users are hand wavy about things that make it non viable, but I also see your main argument as having a fair amount of handwave, especially the phrase "they tend to". This isn't to say that your complaints aren't valid or that you're misrepresenting your own experience, but it doesn't further the discussion and depending on the context with which you are raising it can be seen as a disingenuous way of trying to discredit or undermine Linux as a viable option. That is to say, in isolation your comment is fine. If a thread on a topic that is related to the Linux desktop only features people citing their unspecific list of issues with desktop Linux then it stop being a reasonable good faith discussion and starts becoming ideological Linux bashing.

jcelerier 4y ago

> , linux often has me "under the hood" trying to fix stuff that is literally never an issue on another OS. no, on other OSes you just cannot fix it. e.g. for instance on my computer I have a win32 install and for some reason on it the ethernet network speed seems locked to 100mbit-ish while on linux I get my gigabit ethernet performance. what can I do to debug this on windows when i tried the usual install / remove drivers, etc etc ? absolutely nothing, I just learn to live with the issue like most people on that OS.

jameshart 4y ago
If you have a windows install and your Ethernet card isn’t getting full performance a normal person will claim on your manufacturer’s warranty, or drop it off with the geek squad. They won’t ‘troubleshoot’. If they’re running Linux, they can’t even do those things.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  A normal person would have no clue they aren't getting full performance. If it's too slow they call the internet provider or buy a new computer or live with it and hate computers or ask a teckie friend. If they can't login or the screen breaks they run to geek squad. Under no condition will they claim manufacture warranty on an internal part without a techie recommending this and removing the card/part for them
incone123 4y ago
I had an issue with a wifi card in my self-built win 10 PC and I'd agree there's nothing I could do myself to fix it. I'm not competent to even help write drivers but at least in theory the Linux community could write me a new one if the same issue happened on Linux. But the reason I'm on windows in the first place is that I left Linux several years ago when I bought a second monitor and Linux would sometimes work great but sometimes fail to display anything on either of them at startup. That just was not useable. I tried again about a year after and same issue - I would like to go back to Linux but I don't have time to roll the dice on being able to start work in the morning or have to ssh in from another device to figure out what happened to my display.

tluyben2 4y ago

Been using Linux daily on laptops for 20 years. I haven’t ‘tinkered’ with anything for over 10 years of that. I install Debian, get my keys on it and then just clone my tools from git and run install. It’ll set it up so I have (far more) battery life than windows, have all my tooling and software. I upgraded laptops for a very long time without issues. I do pick my hardware for Linux support and I don’t care about gaming. I have really no idea what you or others mean by this? What breaks? Do you have blog posts with details? What do you do differently than me? I know some use cases are different than mine so I wouldn’t know them, but I always wonder when I see people complaining about things like battery life (I consistently have at least double or more for Linux than on Windows for the same workloads across laptops, both 32 (aka old) and 64 bit), missing or broken drivers (I don’t use gpus locally) etc. My non tech acquaintances have issues with Windows all the time but they just ignore them. Seems when installing Linux people suddenly want perfection?

wankle 4y ago

"I've dropped it each time because while yes, things do work, they tend to STOP working." I've used Linux on the desktop since 1994. In all that time I recall one breaking update on Debian affecting the wireless network driver. I've used Ubuntu since 2006 and never had any issues like you describe. That is across multiple machine types from Dell, Lenovo and HP. The same is true for my wife who is non-technical and has no issues using Linux (Ubuntu). As another case in addition to the multiple I mentioned already, I'd vouch for the majority of Android phones running fine without issues caused by new updates, I mention Android since there are people who use their phone exclusively for computing, and oddly. Summary, use Ubuntu on the desktop, pick a decent manufacturer like Dell, HP or Lenovo (I prefer Dell and/or Alienware from Dell or Lenovo) and maybe pick one that sells with Linux or made for Linux to further enhance your success. I've heard System 76 makes good systems too.

twosdai 4y ago
I use system76 pop os as a main driver for my desktop. There is a learning curve to do everything and i do occasionally switch to windows for some games. I am a senior engineer as well. I think the biggest thing holding linux desktops back is not technical really it's a human element, like the services to talk on a forum, having things setup ahead of time for the user etc... Windows has a learning curve which people went through if you want to switch to Linux you need to learn. Just as if you start on Linux and wanted to switch to windows you'd have a learning curve.
- evilduck 4y ago
  I use PopOS on a newer Legion 5i. Randomly the BT stopped working after a kernel update last year. Sound and wifi will sometimes not work after resuming from sleep even now. This is my average desktop Linux life experience. Some will trot out their anecdotes that they've never experienced even one issue in decades and others will have showstopping issues at the installer. Both will be right. Anything that doesn't ship with Linux preinstalled is a total crapshoot in my experience of 25 years of using Linux on desktops and laptops. Chromebooks and Android and SteamDecks prove it can be reliable, but it takes coordinated manufacturer effort. Anything else is always a gamble of current support or future updates breaking something that previously was working. Linux issues aren't necessarily harder to solve than Windows issues, but since software compatibility still remains the motivation for average users to switch still remains minimal, and if you recommend the switch you instantly become that person's IT support.

tluyben2 4y ago

As a counter point, I installed Ubuntu on a 5 year old laptop someone gave me because they bought a tablet and gifted it to a computer illiterate friend whose Windows laptop died. He didn’t notice it wasn’t windows and he has had 0 issues. This was over 5 years ago. He uses it for everything and takes it everywhere. Like I said in another reply: do you have details on what happens when things break. I have never seen it myself and maybe the community can prevent it if they would know.

wincy 4y ago
My wife didn’t mind Ubuntu on her laptop, except for the initial install had an upside down screen so I had to reconfigure the gyroscope to know which way is up and down, and when her RAM would get full, the system would just lock up and she’d have to restart. She could even use Microsoft Teams for calls with our daughters doctors! To be fair, these laptops were quite old and I installed windows on another identical laptop, but Windows had totally broken Bluetooth and you couldn’t change the display brightness, which was way more annoying than the relatively minor Ubuntu issue with RAM. I never managed to fix those issues on Windows, so I’m not bashing on Linux here. Eventually I bought her an M1 MacBook Air. She hasn’t complained once.

wintermutestwin 4y ago

>they tend to STOP working The worst part is that when they do stop working, I have forgotten the horrible kludge of steps I had to go through to get something working the first time around. Of course the answers are out there, but finding the one answer that worked on the distro I used? Needle, meet haystack. I feel this is due to a reliance on CLI to do almost everything. CLI wouldn't be so problematic if those steps worked on every distro. This is the reason that fragmentation is holding LoD back IMO.

DrBazza 4y ago

> I've dropped it each time because while yes, things do work, they tend to STOP working And over 25 years of Windows updates, I've had breakages too. And I've had disastrous upgrades from XP->7, and 8->10. I'd say I get one bad driver update with Windows every couple of years or so. Windows just seems to not break the main things like the desktop. On the other hand, I've run a linux desktop for quite a few years: Arch/sway for 2yrs, Ubuntu/kde for 4yrs, and Fedora/gnome for a year. I had zero problems with Arch, a few problems with Ubuntu, and zero with Fedora. The year of the linux desktop is now largely irrelevant because so many people are using other devices. Still, developers are now using it as their primary driver, as you can develop for the web or for Android on it.

GTP 4y ago

All OSes can stop working, or have a component that stops working. What I think is happening here, is that we are more forgiving towards our preferred OS. When something stops working on Windows, I first complain about yet another thing not working in Windows, and then I fix it. When instead something breaks on my favorite Linux distro (not naming it intentionally to avoid a distro war) I just fix it. In my experience, I have less problems on Linux than on Windows, but different users have different experiences and value different aspects of an OS.

flippinburgers 4y ago

I've used linux for two decades and enjoyed every year of it. The recent 7 years or so have been as painless as windows in my experience. Honestly, handling updates on linux has been better I would say.

dmix 4y ago

> I've tried linux 3 or so times over the years, always the "friendly" distros. I did the same thing, it wasn't until I used Arch Linux that I really started to understand Linux. It turned I wasn't looking for a wannabe-MacOS distro, I just really liked a minimalist Gnome 3.12+ (when Gnome hit the sweet spot) or i3 based Linux that had zero background processes, installed programs, or anything that I didn't opt-in to. If you want MacOS just use MacOS. On Arch I could run `top` and know what everything is which had amazing performance and battery benefits. Also learning Linux deeply (ie, the directory structures and meaning of /usr /etc, logging, managing services with SystemD, managing diskspace size, proper bash scripting w/ all of the unix tools, etc) really helped me at my job as a programmer ssh'ing into servers.

Nursie 4y ago

Weird, I’ve been using it as a professional desktop for about 20 years now, with a few forays into MacOS for a couple of years at a time thrown in. I can count issues like you describe on the fingers of one hand. MacOS is generally very stable, of course, because they also control the hardware, but I have experienced unexpected reboots on MacBooks. I find windows pretty frustrating and opaque, I certainly don’t know how anyone could work on it effectively. Having to find and install third party software packages just to get hardware going is a right nightmare. Recently my windows 11 (I keep it around for gaming) was complaining that it couldn’t activate a safety feature, memory consistency checking or something, due to outdated drivers, and listed stuff for hardware I no longer owned. I ended up on a multi-hour trip down the google rabbit hole to try to fix that because there were no updates and the official line is people should never uninstall any drivers! All I’m saying is YMMV, maybe you just grok windows but not Linux. It’s not universal though.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago

> I've attacked it as a viable option because linux users seem to handwave some of the things that make it a non viable option for a large % of the population. Yep, exactly this. A portion of the Linux Desktop community is so high on its own farts that it can't tolerate the idea that people might have legitimate reasons for not using Linux as their desktop. If you have a problematic use case, their suggestion is to get a different use case.

Xelynega 4y ago
Do you have anything to add to the discussion other than calling people "high on [their] own farts"?
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  No more to contribute then those who add their anecdotal experience of having used Linux on the desktop for 20 years "flawlessly" or that their grandma uses it and doesn't have any issues as a response to someone talking about how things they need don't actually work. If you want to chastise me for echoing parent's sentiment then that's fine. I'm used to getting grief literally any time I complain about anything in Linux. Remarkably, the same is not true when I complain about Windows. Funny that.
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LeFantome 4y ago
What use cases?

fsflover 4y ago

> I've tried linux 3 or so times over the years, always the "friendly" distros. In 2023, you should not try as many distros as possible. They are all similar enough. You should try hardware designed for Linux, instead of one forcing Linux developers to reverse-engineer WiFi and suspend to make it work. Ideally, try it preinstalled. I am happy with my Librem 15, no tinkering is ever required.

bsder 4y ago

> I've dropped it each time because while yes, things do work, they tend to STOP working. Drivers, updates, compatibility lag, whatever it is, linux often has me "under the hood" trying to fix stuff that is literally never an issue on another OS. It's funny because this is, in fact, my reason for dumping Windows and macOS. The only difference is that I can't open the hood if I'm on Windows or macOS. So, if something breaks there, I'm simply screwed. Between forced upgrades on macOS (sure, you can keep your OS back, but things like XCode, for example, will do their damndest to force you to upgrade) and random "Windows Update" stupidity ("Nope, no work for you! I must spend 30 minutes upgrading. Oh, by the way, do you want to upgrade to Windows 11 and we put the GTFO button in 6 point italic on your other monitor and we'll harass you again tomorrow.) I finally decamped for Linux permanently and haven't regretted it one iota.