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I'd argue that part of "the ability to get things done" is exactly what OP is likely missing as a hobbyist: the ability to work with peers and superiors effecti

I'd argue that part of "the ability to get things done" is exactly what OP is likely missing as a hobbyist: the ability to work with peers and superiors effectively. Doing a bootcamp is IMHO a good way to help on the ability to work with peers; while it's not the focus and you might get bored on the coding side of things, that's also good because it gives you time to think and act on how to collaborate more effectively (but only if the money you pay is something you can happily spend; don't go into trouble otherwise IMHO). Then you also need to be able to get your boss, stakeholders, etc. tasks and needs into account to build something for them. As advice here, you could probably try freelancing to get more knowledge. As a hobby, now you get an idea and have self-learned how to implement it. With clients or bosses, you need to get them to explain the idea, and go back and forth enough to understand it well enough without becoming annoying/more trouble than it's worth. Some clients will delegate more and give you more creative freedom, some will delegate less, and both might have different abilities to express their thoughts. It's your task to make sure you understand it all and are able to execute on their idea, complementing it with your creativity when needed. If you are in a good enough position, I'd start trying freelancing for family and friends small business at a discount, then try to get more and more real-ish clients. Once you have become good enough at freelancing that you are ready to find a job, you might even be able to convert some of those freelancer jobs into part or fulltime jobs, or at the very least showcase your work so far. I did that with a couple of internships and then a bit of freelancing. Note: this advice won't get you in Google, but IMHO it's a good path to get in the industry.

robocat 4y ago
> I'd argue that part of "the ability to get things done" is exactly what OP is likely missing as a hobbyist: the ability to work with peers and superiors effectively Completely disagree: in plenty of other jobs people learn to get things done, and how to work with peers/bosses/reports. There is not much signal about the OPs soft skill level so you are making an assumption. Interpersonal skills tend to be strongest in people that are always working with others (particularly clients and peers) rather than sitting in front of a computer. I would rather work with a cook/hairdresser/etc that became a software programmer than developers completely lacking in motivation or lacking interpersonal skills (I have had the distinct displeasure of working with plenty of low-EQ developers in my past). There are specific interactions in software that are somewhat specialised. However the generalised interpersonal skills are what it is difficult to be good at, and the specialised software soft skills are learnable. (Edited: clarity)
- franciscop 4y ago
  Agreed, I've made an assumption and I explicitly added adjectives to note so, like "likely", "IMHO", etc. It's not a crazy assumption though, OP seems pretty lost career-wise, no previous dev experience, unable to land a job in a world hungry for devs, and I'd argue they don't seem to have enough people-skills to figure these questions without resorting to the internet, all of which suggest to be either a student or pretty early in their career. Could be mistaken of course, just saying assuming it's someone early in their career to base my answer on something tangible doesn't seem crazy.
  - robocat 4y ago
    It turns out your assumptions were somewhat hasty ;) Neontomo wrote in comments (perhaps after you commented): “I'm 29 and started working at 18! I've worked outside the service industry too (recently at Apple) but yes that's my main experience.”, and “I did some work for a hotel and sped up their marketing and IT stuff quite a bit with automation”. And georgyo wrote “There is a lot of comments, but no one took a moment to look at your profile and visit your website.” —— I always forget to do that! Even though I sometimes backtrawl all comments by a particular hn user (which might have been useful in this situation). > without resorting to the internet Asking for “expert” (?) advice on HN seems like a reasonably skilful approach, if used with other information sources (hard to know given we don’t know their context). It looked to me that they got heaps of really valuable feedback, validating their approach? To me your second comment seems to repeat the mistake of the first. I hope I don’t come across to you as foolishly critical - I think we are all trying to help!
    - neontomo 4y ago
      Thank you for making this comment. This thread was immensely useful to me, as it helped me get 2 interviews at really cool places where I hope I can be of use and learn something. Currently focusing on learning a very specific stack too, because of the comments here. Thanks to everyone who answered.

robocat 4y ago

> I'd argue that part of "the ability to get things done" is exactly what OP is likely missing as a hobbyist: the ability to work with peers and superiors effectively Completely disagree: in plenty of other jobs people learn to get things done, and how to work with peers/bosses/reports. There is not much signal about the OPs soft skill level so you are making an assumption. Interpersonal skills tend to be strongest in people that are always working with others (particularly clients and peers) rather than sitting in front of a computer. I would rather work with a cook/hairdresser/etc that became a software programmer than developers completely lacking in motivation or lacking interpersonal skills (I have had the distinct displeasure of working with plenty of low-EQ developers in my past). There are specific interactions in software that are somewhat specialised. However the generalised interpersonal skills are what it is difficult to be good at, and the specialised software soft skills are learnable. (Edited: clarity)

franciscop 4y ago
Agreed, I've made an assumption and I explicitly added adjectives to note so, like "likely", "IMHO", etc. It's not a crazy assumption though, OP seems pretty lost career-wise, no previous dev experience, unable to land a job in a world hungry for devs, and I'd argue they don't seem to have enough people-skills to figure these questions without resorting to the internet, all of which suggest to be either a student or pretty early in their career. Could be mistaken of course, just saying assuming it's someone early in their career to base my answer on something tangible doesn't seem crazy.
- robocat 4y ago
  It turns out your assumptions were somewhat hasty ;) Neontomo wrote in comments (perhaps after you commented): “I'm 29 and started working at 18! I've worked outside the service industry too (recently at Apple) but yes that's my main experience.”, and “I did some work for a hotel and sped up their marketing and IT stuff quite a bit with automation”. And georgyo wrote “There is a lot of comments, but no one took a moment to look at your profile and visit your website.” —— I always forget to do that! Even though I sometimes backtrawl all comments by a particular hn user (which might have been useful in this situation). > without resorting to the internet Asking for “expert” (?) advice on HN seems like a reasonably skilful approach, if used with other information sources (hard to know given we don’t know their context). It looked to me that they got heaps of really valuable feedback, validating their approach? To me your second comment seems to repeat the mistake of the first. I hope I don’t come across to you as foolishly critical - I think we are all trying to help!
  - neontomo 4y ago
    Thank you for making this comment. This thread was immensely useful to me, as it helped me get 2 interviews at really cool places where I hope I can be of use and learn something. Currently focusing on learning a very specific stack too, because of the comments here. Thanks to everyone who answered.