4 ms·

It's not clear to me there was ever a time people were properly compensated for the amount of work they do. However, it is clear that the cat is out of the bag

It's not clear to me there was ever a time people were properly compensated for the amount of work they do. However, it is clear that the cat is out of the bag now - and people look at those working their asses off like they're suckers, not like they're role models. I wonder if compensation & promotion is going to change, or if the future is just going to be a race to the bottom for worker productivity.

DoctorOW 4y ago
My guess on this is it's yet another consequence of being privately interconnected. A few decades ago, you could motivate someone by claiming there are people somewhere in the company being much more productive and cover your tracks by saying it's rude to ask your other coworkers. Now, you have other people to ask besides your coworkers and ways to easily organize your coworkers outside of work. It's no coincidence that the groups that are unionizing are generally more tech-savvy (young workers in retail, Apple, Amazon)
MarkPNeyer 4y ago
What about people who own and operate their own small business?
- lupire 4y ago
  The likes of Amazon and Walmart and McDonald's crush them.
  - seneca 4y ago
    Over 99% of businesses in the US are "small businesses". Just under half of working Americans work for small businesses.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      IIUC, an individually owned franchise of McDonald's or Subway is considered a "small business". Many small businesses are completely family owned and operated and only employ 1 or 2 people (the family). So this statistic that everyone spouts out that most people "work for" small businesses - I'm curious how accurate that statement actually is to what people think it means.
      - StopHammoTime 4y ago
        There was an article on here a few days ago about a call centre outsourcer who exploits workers. They make them pay for training, giving them tiny shifts, and then when they’re available for an hour but only take one call they only get paid for the time they were on a call (even though they were chained to their desks). Most of their workers had their own LLCs that only employed themselves. A lot of companies force people to subcontract to get out of paying benefits. The statistic is a shameful one because it is not an indicator of a society that values gumption, tenacity, and entrepreneurship - it’s an indicator of the exploration of labour and crushing one’s fellow man underfoot in the eternal march for lower margins and higher profits.
        onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
        Yeah, I was also thinking about Temporary Vendor Contractors at large companies - and some percentage of them work for an LC - that is just themselves. But saying that they "work for a small business" seems strange. This seems true for most contractors, tbh.
mLuby 4y ago
> It's not clear to me there was ever a time people were properly compensated for the amount of work they do. It's not a new problem. 150y ago Marx called this exploitation of laborers the extraction of surplus value. Slavery is of course a very ancient evil. There is notably one group who are at minimum compensated for the work they do: billionaires, some of whom "earn" a million dollars per hour.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> It's not clear to me there was ever a time people were properly compensated for the amount of work they do. A family friend of mine operates a couple small businesses in a rural community. They’ve tried to bootstrap or acquire a couple companies over time, operating them at a loss for a while as they try to make them efficient enough to work. It’s surprisingly hard to make a break-even business. There’s a common misconception that business owners are all raking in cash at the expensive of their employees, but that’s not easy or common. A lot of small businesses close because it costs more to pay employees than the business can actually bring in (minus operating expenses). Even many big companies like Uber are operating at a loss, contrary to the public perception that these companies are a rip-off that exploit everyone to the max. Ironically, in software I’ve seen a lot of people getting compensated far above their output for many years before the company finally catches on. This is one field where people who interview well can get a foot in the door and then coast on organizational inefficiencies at a lot of places while doing very little work. Obviously this doesn’t apply at all companies, but it’s weirdly common to hear engineers bragging here on HN about how few hours they work each week, or even people expressing disbelief that anyone can do more than an hour or two of work each day.
- cyberlurker 4y ago
  Most times when I see people talking about hours worked on HN they are referring to their productive problem solving hours, like coding or research. They still put in the other hours doing stuff like meetings and emails. But even if someone only works 2 hours but provides value surpassing their salary, then who cares?
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Why would someone not consider time spent on work meetings or work emails "hours worked"?
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  > It’s surprisingly hard to make a break-even business. Because workers aren't productive, because you get paid by the lowest common denominator, because that's all businesses expect - and anyone doing more - unless to gain skills for the benefit of themselves - is a fool.

DoctorOW 4y ago

My guess on this is it's yet another consequence of being privately interconnected. A few decades ago, you could motivate someone by claiming there are people somewhere in the company being much more productive and cover your tracks by saying it's rude to ask your other coworkers. Now, you have other people to ask besides your coworkers and ways to easily organize your coworkers outside of work. It's no coincidence that the groups that are unionizing are generally more tech-savvy (young workers in retail, Apple, Amazon)

MarkPNeyer 4y ago

What about people who own and operate their own small business?

lupire 4y ago
The likes of Amazon and Walmart and McDonald's crush them.
- seneca 4y ago
  Over 99% of businesses in the US are "small businesses". Just under half of working Americans work for small businesses.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    IIUC, an individually owned franchise of McDonald's or Subway is considered a "small business". Many small businesses are completely family owned and operated and only employ 1 or 2 people (the family). So this statistic that everyone spouts out that most people "work for" small businesses - I'm curious how accurate that statement actually is to what people think it means.
    - StopHammoTime 4y ago
      There was an article on here a few days ago about a call centre outsourcer who exploits workers. They make them pay for training, giving them tiny shifts, and then when they’re available for an hour but only take one call they only get paid for the time they were on a call (even though they were chained to their desks). Most of their workers had their own LLCs that only employed themselves. A lot of companies force people to subcontract to get out of paying benefits. The statistic is a shameful one because it is not an indicator of a society that values gumption, tenacity, and entrepreneurship - it’s an indicator of the exploration of labour and crushing one’s fellow man underfoot in the eternal march for lower margins and higher profits.
      - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
        Yeah, I was also thinking about Temporary Vendor Contractors at large companies - and some percentage of them work for an LC - that is just themselves. But saying that they "work for a small business" seems strange. This seems true for most contractors, tbh.

mLuby 4y ago

> It's not clear to me there was ever a time people were properly compensated for the amount of work they do. It's not a new problem. 150y ago Marx called this exploitation of laborers the extraction of surplus value. Slavery is of course a very ancient evil. There is notably one group who are at minimum compensated for the work they do: billionaires, some of whom "earn" a million dollars per hour.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

> It's not clear to me there was ever a time people were properly compensated for the amount of work they do. A family friend of mine operates a couple small businesses in a rural community. They’ve tried to bootstrap or acquire a couple companies over time, operating them at a loss for a while as they try to make them efficient enough to work. It’s surprisingly hard to make a break-even business. There’s a common misconception that business owners are all raking in cash at the expensive of their employees, but that’s not easy or common. A lot of small businesses close because it costs more to pay employees than the business can actually bring in (minus operating expenses). Even many big companies like Uber are operating at a loss, contrary to the public perception that these companies are a rip-off that exploit everyone to the max. Ironically, in software I’ve seen a lot of people getting compensated far above their output for many years before the company finally catches on. This is one field where people who interview well can get a foot in the door and then coast on organizational inefficiencies at a lot of places while doing very little work. Obviously this doesn’t apply at all companies, but it’s weirdly common to hear engineers bragging here on HN about how few hours they work each week, or even people expressing disbelief that anyone can do more than an hour or two of work each day.

cyberlurker 4y ago
Most times when I see people talking about hours worked on HN they are referring to their productive problem solving hours, like coding or research. They still put in the other hours doing stuff like meetings and emails. But even if someone only works 2 hours but provides value surpassing their salary, then who cares?
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Why would someone not consider time spent on work meetings or work emails "hours worked"?
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
> It’s surprisingly hard to make a break-even business. Because workers aren't productive, because you get paid by the lowest common denominator, because that's all businesses expect - and anyone doing more - unless to gain skills for the benefit of themselves - is a fool.