8 ms·

> deregulated free market sucking people dry in the US over basic needs, forcing them to live with outrageous rents, childcare, healthcare, living costs. Hilar

> deregulated free market sucking people dry in the US over basic needs, forcing them to live with outrageous rents, childcare, healthcare, living costs. Hilarious. Those are all expensive because of government constraints -- the profit-seeking free market is unable to drive prices down because regulations have raised barriers to entry and dramatically reduced competition and innovation. Meanwhile more lightly-regulated sectors show clear negative inflation. But even before getting to the mechanism, I don't think the actual reality totally matches what you've deacribed. Rents in the US are generally not "outrageous" (obvious exceptions excepted), and living costs are low -- fuel is cheap, electricity is cheap, food is cheap. Far from "sucking people dry" the corporations in those industries are providing for people much better than any government agency. See this famous chart for the receipts -- which things government interferes with, and which are becoming more expensive: https://inflationdata.com/articles/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Inflation-1996-2016-by-category.png https://inflationdata.com/articles/wp-content/uploads/2019/1...

unity1001 4y ago
> Those are all expensive because of government constraints There are even more government constraints in Europe, China, Japan. The real estate sector, healthcare, education etc are not out of hand in those places like they are in the US. > the profit-seeking free market is unable to drive prices down The profit-seeking free market is unable to drive prices down because driving prices down is anathema to profit-seeking. > See this famous chart for the receipts -- which things government interferes with A blog post from Randians in contrast to actually existing reality does not an argument make. Let me reiterate: There are more government constraints everywhere else around the world. Nowhere else those critical sectors are out of hand.
- jcampbell1 4y ago
  I ended up in a hospital in Urumqi China. It was the most capitalist thing I have ever experienced. You put money on a card and pay for services individually… the nurses all had a card reader. $35 for a CT, $6 IV penicillin, (repeat 6 times), $20 see an ENT, $5 for Augmentin. Government matches the amount paid, and poor people get a card that is very discounted. Family members typically moved the patient since orderlies were an additional charge.
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    it is frankly amazing that you took the reality of the government paying for half of all medical coverage, paying for most of it for poor people, and regulating low prices for such care (well below America from your examples) as “capitalism works!” What the hell?
    - jcampbell1 4y ago
      Progressive taxation and subsidies are completely within the realm of capitalism. It is regulation and government provision of services that push the system outside the competition benefits of capitalism. The Chinese system is straight up Austrian economics capitalism. The prices weren’t regulated. The CT machine was a hand me down. The place operated with basically no management. It worked like a food court in Singapore.
      - oivey 4y ago
        You said the government paid half the costs with even more for poorer people. When did Rothbard advocate for that?
        jcampbell1 4y ago
        The government isn’t interfering with the factors of production. The healthcare system has market based incentives. The Chinese system is no money means no western healthcare. Western healthcare didn’t really exist in China until the 90s. It grew from nothing organically through market forces. If the US switched to the Chinese system for healthcare, the socialist minded people would cry themselves to death.
        ok_dad 4y ago
        > The government isn’t interfering with the factors of production. > The Chinese system Are you saying the Chinese government does not interfere with the factors of production in their country? I was under the impression China was a hybrid of a centrally-controlled economy, and if so that absolutely does mean they interfere! Please correct me if I am wrong, because I would love to learn how China does the free market better than the USA and how we can change the USA to be more like China in this aspect.
- repsilat 4y ago
  Real estate isn't bad in most places in the US. In most places it's easy and cheap to build, and houses are large and comfortable. The expensive places (San Francisco, Manhattan) are expensive because of government interference, and there are places in Europe just as dysfunctional in different ways -- waiting lists for rentals, undersupply and poor quality because of rent control etc. In the US healthcare is regulated like crazy, entirely broken by government intervention. Probably other places have governments that have broken their systems less badly. I won't argue that systems with some private actors involved are necessarily better than those that have none at all. And as for education, America's private and charter schools are better than its public non-charter schools even controlling for funding and student quality. And it has among the best tertiary education in the world, and yeah it's not a bad thing that the students who can afford to pay for it have to pay their own way. (American tertiary education costs are largely means-tested.) As for the rest of the argument, I think the fact that nobody can afford to buy a television because we're all being gouged by unregulated, excessively profitable technology manufacturers is the best demonstration of your point. Everyone can at least agree with you that competitive pressures never lower prices.
  - unity1001 4y ago
    > The expensive places (San Francisco, Manhattan) are expensive because of government interference There isn't any megapolis on the planet that does not have 'government interference'. That's what makes millions over millions of people in a tight place actually be able to live and work. > In the US healthcare is regulated like crazy, entirely broken by government intervention. Prices. You need to regulate prices. Irrelevant regulation doesn't do anything about prices.
8note 4y ago
> fuel is cheap, electricity is cheap, food is cheap. And you're saying the industries with government intervention are the expensive ones? What's going on with fuel, electricity, and food; all of which have heavy government interference
- etchalon 4y ago
  It's almost like it's more complicated than just "regulation".
- repsilat 4y ago
  The government does interfere with them, but to a much smaller extent than in other countries. Europe is famously protective of its food producers, Germany shut its nuclear power stations down. France's nuclear generation is a shining rare example of good use of state capacity, a kind of counterexample the shock of which demonstrates the truth of the generalization. There isn't a huge amount of government involvement in fuel in the US. Some bad ethanol requirements, some taxes, but still less bad than elsewhere. And fracking is legal where it matters, thank God.

unity1001 4y ago

> Those are all expensive because of government constraints There are even more government constraints in Europe, China, Japan. The real estate sector, healthcare, education etc are not out of hand in those places like they are in the US. > the profit-seeking free market is unable to drive prices down The profit-seeking free market is unable to drive prices down because driving prices down is anathema to profit-seeking. > See this famous chart for the receipts -- which things government interferes with A blog post from Randians in contrast to actually existing reality does not an argument make. Let me reiterate: There are more government constraints everywhere else around the world. Nowhere else those critical sectors are out of hand.

jcampbell1 4y ago
I ended up in a hospital in Urumqi China. It was the most capitalist thing I have ever experienced. You put money on a card and pay for services individually… the nurses all had a card reader. $35 for a CT, $6 IV penicillin, (repeat 6 times), $20 see an ENT, $5 for Augmentin. Government matches the amount paid, and poor people get a card that is very discounted. Family members typically moved the patient since orderlies were an additional charge.
- ok_dad 4y ago
  it is frankly amazing that you took the reality of the government paying for half of all medical coverage, paying for most of it for poor people, and regulating low prices for such care (well below America from your examples) as “capitalism works!” What the hell?
  - jcampbell1 4y ago
    Progressive taxation and subsidies are completely within the realm of capitalism. It is regulation and government provision of services that push the system outside the competition benefits of capitalism. The Chinese system is straight up Austrian economics capitalism. The prices weren’t regulated. The CT machine was a hand me down. The place operated with basically no management. It worked like a food court in Singapore.
    - oivey 4y ago
      You said the government paid half the costs with even more for poorer people. When did Rothbard advocate for that?
      - jcampbell1 4y ago
        The government isn’t interfering with the factors of production. The healthcare system has market based incentives. The Chinese system is no money means no western healthcare. Western healthcare didn’t really exist in China until the 90s. It grew from nothing organically through market forces. If the US switched to the Chinese system for healthcare, the socialist minded people would cry themselves to death.
        ok_dad 4y ago
        > The government isn’t interfering with the factors of production. > The Chinese system Are you saying the Chinese government does not interfere with the factors of production in their country? I was under the impression China was a hybrid of a centrally-controlled economy, and if so that absolutely does mean they interfere! Please correct me if I am wrong, because I would love to learn how China does the free market better than the USA and how we can change the USA to be more like China in this aspect.
repsilat 4y ago
Real estate isn't bad in most places in the US. In most places it's easy and cheap to build, and houses are large and comfortable. The expensive places (San Francisco, Manhattan) are expensive because of government interference, and there are places in Europe just as dysfunctional in different ways -- waiting lists for rentals, undersupply and poor quality because of rent control etc. In the US healthcare is regulated like crazy, entirely broken by government intervention. Probably other places have governments that have broken their systems less badly. I won't argue that systems with some private actors involved are necessarily better than those that have none at all. And as for education, America's private and charter schools are better than its public non-charter schools even controlling for funding and student quality. And it has among the best tertiary education in the world, and yeah it's not a bad thing that the students who can afford to pay for it have to pay their own way. (American tertiary education costs are largely means-tested.) As for the rest of the argument, I think the fact that nobody can afford to buy a television because we're all being gouged by unregulated, excessively profitable technology manufacturers is the best demonstration of your point. Everyone can at least agree with you that competitive pressures never lower prices.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > The expensive places (San Francisco, Manhattan) are expensive because of government interference There isn't any megapolis on the planet that does not have 'government interference'. That's what makes millions over millions of people in a tight place actually be able to live and work. > In the US healthcare is regulated like crazy, entirely broken by government intervention. Prices. You need to regulate prices. Irrelevant regulation doesn't do anything about prices.

8note 4y ago

> fuel is cheap, electricity is cheap, food is cheap. And you're saying the industries with government intervention are the expensive ones? What's going on with fuel, electricity, and food; all of which have heavy government interference

etchalon 4y ago
It's almost like it's more complicated than just "regulation".
repsilat 4y ago
The government does interfere with them, but to a much smaller extent than in other countries. Europe is famously protective of its food producers, Germany shut its nuclear power stations down. France's nuclear generation is a shining rare example of good use of state capacity, a kind of counterexample the shock of which demonstrates the truth of the generalization. There isn't a huge amount of government involvement in fuel in the US. Some bad ethanol requirements, some taxes, but still less bad than elsewhere. And fracking is legal where it matters, thank God.