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The great success of the EU is that it has stopped the member countries from going to war with each other. Apart from that it is an expensive, overreaching inst

The great success of the EU is that it has stopped the member countries from going to war with each other. Apart from that it is an expensive, overreaching institute of busybodies with very little democratic control. Some of the policies the EU pushes are good, some are bad. But the people have no say either way.

dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
That's utter nonsense. The people who elect EU leaders, shape EU law make and decisions on it are the members of the governments of the EU states, who are duly elected by their constituents. The less powerful EU parliament is also democratically elected by EU citizens.
- tinus_hn 4y ago
  So, as you describe, the people who make these very important decisions are two steps away from democracy, the public has no way to hold them responsible for their actions and they are elected in politicized back room deals. In turn, the people that the public gets to vote for are the ‘less powerful’, they are never on the news and it is totally unclear what they are even doing. All that is on the news are the undemocratically chosen people. It’s really not surprising that most people don’t bother voting for the EU and that a lot of them would vote to leave immediately given the chance.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
    > the people who make these very important decisions are two steps away from democracy What are you talking about? Members of EU member governments are directly elected by citizens, they're the ones making the decisions at the EU. The administrators of the EU elected by governments, but they do no vote on, and have no power over legislation. All voting power comes from members governments, just like they vote for their own national legislation. Give it up, you just have no idea how the EU works.
    - tinus_hn 4y ago
      Most people have no idea and give it up, that’s for sure. The people directly elected, the European Parliament, can’t introduce new rules and only get to rubber stamp rules made by others. Meanwhile the rules are introduced by the European Commission which is not directly elected and thus not democratically accountable. Consider the very existence of this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_legitimacy_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_legitimacy_of_the_E... And a choice quote > The German Constitutional Court referred to a "structural democratic deficit" inherent in the construction of the European Union. But the reality is that the undemocracy of the EU shows in the rules it produces. For example a functioning democracy doesn’t get away with wasting hundreds of millions on moving its seat between cities, for no practical reasons. A functioning democracy doesn’t get to push for an end to cash money and a start for monitoring every significant bank transaction, with no pushback from the electorate. And there’s plenty of other rules to choose from.
troad 4y ago
> The great success of the EU is that it has stopped the member countries from going to war with each other. You’re confusing the EU with NATO. The EU has no role whatsoever in defence policy, and can claim absolutely no credit for peace in Europe. Neither during the Cold War (how would that even work? Occupied Germany somehow invading France? Most of Europe weren’t even members then), nor now. Zelensky isn’t travelling to Brussels to give a speech to the European Parliament, he’s flying to Washington instead. NATO.
- tinus_hn 4y ago
  It’s not about defense, how are you going to go to war against a country that shares your currency, your market and your rules and that has basically no border control with you?
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > It’s not about defense, how are you going to go to war against a country that shares your currency, your market and your rules and that has basically no border control with you? Since civil wars have happened quite a bit, this seems…less difficult than you assume.

dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago

That's utter nonsense. The people who elect EU leaders, shape EU law make and decisions on it are the members of the governments of the EU states, who are duly elected by their constituents. The less powerful EU parliament is also democratically elected by EU citizens.

tinus_hn 4y ago
So, as you describe, the people who make these very important decisions are two steps away from democracy, the public has no way to hold them responsible for their actions and they are elected in politicized back room deals. In turn, the people that the public gets to vote for are the ‘less powerful’, they are never on the news and it is totally unclear what they are even doing. All that is on the news are the undemocratically chosen people. It’s really not surprising that most people don’t bother voting for the EU and that a lot of them would vote to leave immediately given the chance.
- dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
  > the people who make these very important decisions are two steps away from democracy What are you talking about? Members of EU member governments are directly elected by citizens, they're the ones making the decisions at the EU. The administrators of the EU elected by governments, but they do no vote on, and have no power over legislation. All voting power comes from members governments, just like they vote for their own national legislation. Give it up, you just have no idea how the EU works.
  - tinus_hn 4y ago
    Most people have no idea and give it up, that’s for sure. The people directly elected, the European Parliament, can’t introduce new rules and only get to rubber stamp rules made by others. Meanwhile the rules are introduced by the European Commission which is not directly elected and thus not democratically accountable. Consider the very existence of this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_legitimacy_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_legitimacy_of_the_E... And a choice quote > The German Constitutional Court referred to a "structural democratic deficit" inherent in the construction of the European Union. But the reality is that the undemocracy of the EU shows in the rules it produces. For example a functioning democracy doesn’t get away with wasting hundreds of millions on moving its seat between cities, for no practical reasons. A functioning democracy doesn’t get to push for an end to cash money and a start for monitoring every significant bank transaction, with no pushback from the electorate. And there’s plenty of other rules to choose from.

troad 4y ago

> The great success of the EU is that it has stopped the member countries from going to war with each other. You’re confusing the EU with NATO. The EU has no role whatsoever in defence policy, and can claim absolutely no credit for peace in Europe. Neither during the Cold War (how would that even work? Occupied Germany somehow invading France? Most of Europe weren’t even members then), nor now. Zelensky isn’t travelling to Brussels to give a speech to the European Parliament, he’s flying to Washington instead. NATO.

tinus_hn 4y ago
It’s not about defense, how are you going to go to war against a country that shares your currency, your market and your rules and that has basically no border control with you?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > It’s not about defense, how are you going to go to war against a country that shares your currency, your market and your rules and that has basically no border control with you? Since civil wars have happened quite a bit, this seems…less difficult than you assume.