4 ms·

yes. it’s literally called the united states of america. at the very least, iowa is much better off as part of the union than it would be on its own

by ericj5 4y ago

thriftwy 4y ago
California could do on its own, but any inner region if the USA (Brazil, Russia, China) would be super miserable as a sovereign state.
- tristor 4y ago
  California would immediately become a failed state on its own, unable to meet even the most basic needs of its residents. California MASSIVELY relies on other states for two of the most essential needs for modern civilization: water and electricity. California, ecologically, is not capable of supporting its own population independently, and short of geo-engineering at continent scale nothing will ever change that. It has absolutely nothing to do with politics, economics, or any sort of issues like that, it's simply the geographic and ecological nature of the state. Los Angeles, for example, would be impossible for it to exist without modern technology and mass importation of water, most of which comes from outside of California (although some comes from Northern California where it actually rains). Anyone, like yourself, who seriously contends that California could survive on its own independent of the United States simply does not understand how anything works, water systems, electric systems, import/export economies, globalism, money movements between coasts, investment funding and how it is structured to take investments from the US heartland and VC companies in Californian tech. Your statement is not just a gross oversimplification of a LOT of complex topics, it's blatantly untrue in /every single/ one of those topics.
  - reducesuffering 4y ago
    SoCal will just use NorCal water along with access to ocean desalination. For residential use, there is plenty, without needing to ship out water in the form of half of the US's fruits, nuts, berries, and vegetables. Solar ramp-up is progressing well, already at 17% vs. 50% natural gas, with battery storage to eventually buffer the rest of the 15% nuclear + hydro.
    - tristor 4y ago
      Desalination will likely be required long term for SoCal no matter what, but currently California is not capable of supporting the energy requirements of desalination to replace the water it gets from out of state. The vast majority of California water comes from out of state, less than 30% comes from sources in-state.
      - reducesuffering 4y ago
        > The vast majority of California water comes from out of state, less than 30% comes from sources in-state. That's quite a preposterous assertion. Source? CA has ~85% coming from the Sierra Nevada watershed, only 15% is the Colorado River at the bottom. "California receives 75 percent of its rain and snow in the watersheds north of Sacramento."[0] CA is more than water self-sufficient if it loses the 15% Colorado River, but reduces the ag. water usage (80%) that ships out most of it to the rest of the states. https://water.ca.gov/water-basics/the-california-water-system https://water.ca.gov/water-basics/the-california-water-syste...
    - nerdchum 4y ago
      Do you know how much energy it would take to desalinate water for 30 million people plus all the farms? We're talking numerous large nuclear power plant levels of energy. Have you reaf how long it takes to build a nuclear power plant?? Around a decade. So it's not as simple as just "desalinate"
      - reducesuffering 4y ago
        Right now, 80% of California water is used for agriculture. If you reduce the ag water usage that is shipping most of that produce to the rest of the country, CA has water for residential and ag. for its 39 million.
        nerdchum 4y ago
        From where? I don't understand how that's possible. I don't know of any lakes or rivers or aquifers larger enough to provide water to almost 40 million people in California.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    You can buy electricity, and water in riverways doesn't even belong completely to upstream countries according to water laws.
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    I'd note that one of the problems Russia has run into with Crimea is that Crimea used to get water from Kakhovka Reservoir but now it doesn't.
    - int_19h 4y ago
      It's only a problem if you massively piss off the neighbor who supplies water, to the point that they wouldn't even sell it to you. An independent California would just buy the things that it needs from its neighbors, like most other countries do.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        Secession itself tends to massively piss of the country from which one has seceded, which points to why this would be a problem for an independent California (unless it was a “Greater California” including the headwaters and course of the Colorado River, etc.)
        int_19h 4y ago
        In many cases, you see the opposite - a strong public sentiment to allow or even force secession of some territory that is perceived as a "burden". This is usually represented in economic terms - "why do we have to feed X?" - but it can also be motivated by culture, religion, ideology etc (but, quite often, still coached in economic terms).
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  > but any inner region if the USA would be super miserable as a sovereign state. Would they? Would they really? Sure they'd be poorer but they'd probably just consider that a really, really cheap price to pay for not having to share a country with California (or wherever the line is drawn). Would you take a 10%-20% pay cut to get your way on almost all political issues? That's basically the bargain you're striking when you get out the map and draw a poorer but much more politically homogeneous state. I think most people would take the deal they'd do it with a smile on their face.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    Independence doesn't really mean getting your way on almost all political issues, though. If you're independent but economically weak, you're susceptible from all kinds of pressure from your neighbors, and quite often that pressure is explicitly political (sanctions etc).

yes. it’s literally called the united states of america. at the very least, iowa is much better off as part of the union than it would be on its own

by ericj5 4y ago

yes. it’s literally called the united states of america. at the very least, iowa is much better off as part of the union than it would be on its own

thriftwy 4y ago

California could do on its own, but any inner region if the USA (Brazil, Russia, China) would be super miserable as a sovereign state.

tristor 4y ago
California would immediately become a failed state on its own, unable to meet even the most basic needs of its residents. California MASSIVELY relies on other states for two of the most essential needs for modern civilization: water and electricity. California, ecologically, is not capable of supporting its own population independently, and short of geo-engineering at continent scale nothing will ever change that. It has absolutely nothing to do with politics, economics, or any sort of issues like that, it's simply the geographic and ecological nature of the state. Los Angeles, for example, would be impossible for it to exist without modern technology and mass importation of water, most of which comes from outside of California (although some comes from Northern California where it actually rains). Anyone, like yourself, who seriously contends that California could survive on its own independent of the United States simply does not understand how anything works, water systems, electric systems, import/export economies, globalism, money movements between coasts, investment funding and how it is structured to take investments from the US heartland and VC companies in Californian tech. Your statement is not just a gross oversimplification of a LOT of complex topics, it's blatantly untrue in /every single/ one of those topics.
- reducesuffering 4y ago
  SoCal will just use NorCal water along with access to ocean desalination. For residential use, there is plenty, without needing to ship out water in the form of half of the US's fruits, nuts, berries, and vegetables. Solar ramp-up is progressing well, already at 17% vs. 50% natural gas, with battery storage to eventually buffer the rest of the 15% nuclear + hydro.
  - tristor 4y ago
    Desalination will likely be required long term for SoCal no matter what, but currently California is not capable of supporting the energy requirements of desalination to replace the water it gets from out of state. The vast majority of California water comes from out of state, less than 30% comes from sources in-state.
    - reducesuffering 4y ago
      > The vast majority of California water comes from out of state, less than 30% comes from sources in-state. That's quite a preposterous assertion. Source? CA has ~85% coming from the Sierra Nevada watershed, only 15% is the Colorado River at the bottom. "California receives 75 percent of its rain and snow in the watersheds north of Sacramento."[0] CA is more than water self-sufficient if it loses the 15% Colorado River, but reduces the ag. water usage (80%) that ships out most of it to the rest of the states. https://water.ca.gov/water-basics/the-california-water-system https://water.ca.gov/water-basics/the-california-water-syste...
  - nerdchum 4y ago
    Do you know how much energy it would take to desalinate water for 30 million people plus all the farms? We're talking numerous large nuclear power plant levels of energy. Have you reaf how long it takes to build a nuclear power plant?? Around a decade. So it's not as simple as just "desalinate"
    - reducesuffering 4y ago
      Right now, 80% of California water is used for agriculture. If you reduce the ag water usage that is shipping most of that produce to the rest of the country, CA has water for residential and ag. for its 39 million.
      - nerdchum 4y ago
        From where? I don't understand how that's possible. I don't know of any lakes or rivers or aquifers larger enough to provide water to almost 40 million people in California.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  You can buy electricity, and water in riverways doesn't even belong completely to upstream countries according to water laws.
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  I'd note that one of the problems Russia has run into with Crimea is that Crimea used to get water from Kakhovka Reservoir but now it doesn't.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    It's only a problem if you massively piss off the neighbor who supplies water, to the point that they wouldn't even sell it to you. An independent California would just buy the things that it needs from its neighbors, like most other countries do.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      Secession itself tends to massively piss of the country from which one has seceded, which points to why this would be a problem for an independent California (unless it was a “Greater California” including the headwaters and course of the Colorado River, etc.)
      - int_19h 4y ago
        In many cases, you see the opposite - a strong public sentiment to allow or even force secession of some territory that is perceived as a "burden". This is usually represented in economic terms - "why do we have to feed X?" - but it can also be motivated by culture, religion, ideology etc (but, quite often, still coached in economic terms).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
> but any inner region if the USA would be super miserable as a sovereign state. Would they? Would they really? Sure they'd be poorer but they'd probably just consider that a really, really cheap price to pay for not having to share a country with California (or wherever the line is drawn). Would you take a 10%-20% pay cut to get your way on almost all political issues? That's basically the bargain you're striking when you get out the map and draw a poorer but much more politically homogeneous state. I think most people would take the deal they'd do it with a smile on their face.
- int_19h 4y ago
  Independence doesn't really mean getting your way on almost all political issues, though. If you're independent but economically weak, you're susceptible from all kinds of pressure from your neighbors, and quite often that pressure is explicitly political (sanctions etc).