3 ms·

This is such a complex issue. It worked well for some, bad for others and nobody knows what the future holds, but one thing is for certain: they're trading away

This is such a complex issue. It worked well for some, bad for others and nobody knows what the future holds, but one thing is for certain: they're trading away part of their sovereignty, make no mistake about that. Some would say, the most critical one. I guess we shall see how the future will play out. Good luck to Croatia.

40amxn40 4y ago
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crazygringo 4y ago
Nobody is trading away any sovereignty. That's a mistake on your part. Croatia is freely entering into this and is free to leave in the future as well, the same as the UK chose. This is a sovereign treaty like any other. They are not signing away their ability to change their mind in the future. So there is utterly no change in "sovereignty".
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  You do lose key levers when entering the euro ans Schengen. But this is a trade off and hopefully in 2022 countries do this with their eyes open. On key aspect is that Schengen does not harmonise immigration policy and actual external borders' security but removes internal borders. And of course the euro means the country loses control over its monetary policy.
- sfusato 4y ago
  Well, crazygringo, let me issue & control your money for you then. Nobody said that they are forced. UK didn't adopted the Euro. It wouldn't have been so easy walking off in that case. I'm not so sure about the "free to leave" in the future part, considering the high cost that that would entail. And, in any case, in Croatia's case the advantages could very well outweigh the disadvantages. Curious what do you think of the "West African CFA franc"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_African_CFA_franc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_African_CFA_franc
  - crazygringo 4y ago
    Nothing of what you're saying has any bearing on the term sovereignty, which was your original point. Sovereignty is a legal-political concept, and it has nothing to do with economic tradeoffs or benefits. Adopting the euro obviously has both potential benefits and potential drawbacks, and choosing to adopt it is rationally expecting that the benefits outweight the drawbacks. But that's just purely a matter of pragmatic decision-making. It does not affect Croatia's legal sovereignty.
    - sfusato 4y ago
      When a third party controls your currency, they have some very effective levers over you. Let's not even enter the beneficent/maleficent scenario of the said 3rd party. That's what I'm referring to in regards to sovereignty. I'm sure you've heard of these sayings: He who controls the money supply of a nation controls the nation. Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes its laws.
      - crazygringo 4y ago
        > That's what I'm referring to in regards to sovereignty. But that's not what sovereignty means. I don't know how to make that any clearer. Yes there are levers, but that doesn't make Croatia any less sovereign. Sovereignty is a word with an established, defined meaning -- it's completely and totally separate from economic influence, which is what you seem to be referring to.
        jessaustin 4y ago
        I don't know how to make that any clearer. My suggestion would be to provide a reasonable definition of the word "sovereignty" which logically excludes the benefits or harms that a central bank may impose on users of its currency.

40amxn40 4y ago

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crazygringo 4y ago

Nobody is trading away any sovereignty. That's a mistake on your part. Croatia is freely entering into this and is free to leave in the future as well, the same as the UK chose. This is a sovereign treaty like any other. They are not signing away their ability to change their mind in the future. So there is utterly no change in "sovereignty".

mytailorisrich 4y ago
You do lose key levers when entering the euro ans Schengen. But this is a trade off and hopefully in 2022 countries do this with their eyes open. On key aspect is that Schengen does not harmonise immigration policy and actual external borders' security but removes internal borders. And of course the euro means the country loses control over its monetary policy.
sfusato 4y ago
Well, crazygringo, let me issue & control your money for you then. Nobody said that they are forced. UK didn't adopted the Euro. It wouldn't have been so easy walking off in that case. I'm not so sure about the "free to leave" in the future part, considering the high cost that that would entail. And, in any case, in Croatia's case the advantages could very well outweigh the disadvantages. Curious what do you think of the "West African CFA franc"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_African_CFA_franc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_African_CFA_franc
- crazygringo 4y ago
  Nothing of what you're saying has any bearing on the term sovereignty, which was your original point. Sovereignty is a legal-political concept, and it has nothing to do with economic tradeoffs or benefits. Adopting the euro obviously has both potential benefits and potential drawbacks, and choosing to adopt it is rationally expecting that the benefits outweight the drawbacks. But that's just purely a matter of pragmatic decision-making. It does not affect Croatia's legal sovereignty.
  - sfusato 4y ago
    When a third party controls your currency, they have some very effective levers over you. Let's not even enter the beneficent/maleficent scenario of the said 3rd party. That's what I'm referring to in regards to sovereignty. I'm sure you've heard of these sayings: He who controls the money supply of a nation controls the nation. Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes its laws.
    - crazygringo 4y ago
      > That's what I'm referring to in regards to sovereignty. But that's not what sovereignty means. I don't know how to make that any clearer. Yes there are levers, but that doesn't make Croatia any less sovereign. Sovereignty is a word with an established, defined meaning -- it's completely and totally separate from economic influence, which is what you seem to be referring to.
      - jessaustin 4y ago
        I don't know how to make that any clearer. My suggestion would be to provide a reasonable definition of the word "sovereignty" which logically excludes the benefits or harms that a central bank may impose on users of its currency.