4 ms·

I guess? I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with the history of South-America. I don't think it's unreasonable for people to primarily focus on their own country

I guess? I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with the history of South-America. I don't think it's unreasonable for people to primarily focus on their own country in their own time. Historical context is important, sure, both to understand the cause of today's problems as well as put things in perspective. But in the end, I'm not so sure if it really matters all that much when discussing contemporary issues in e.g. the US or Europe. I mean, you can look up how the ancient Greek treated their women and suddenly you will find that modern feminists from the 70s didn't have all that much to complain about either, never mind contemporary countries like Saudi-Arabia. It's interesting to learn about it for all sorts of reasons, but in the end ... not really all that directly relevant when discussing the status of women in your own country.

zozbot234 4y ago
> But in the end, I'm not so sure if it really matters all that much when discussing contemporary issues in e.g. the US or Europe. Of course it matters. Even if we only consider those who seemingly have no concern at all for the plight of oppressed people outside of their own society - it's a natural experiment that lets us witness the real, actual consequences of structural racism in their purest form, and over the very long run (a time-span of several centuries in fact). Which is kinda important when you attach so much relevance to it as a causal factor. It lets us compare and contrast outcomes, and find out whether other things might also be relevant.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  > kinda important when you attach so much relevance to it as a causal factor. It lets us compare and contrast outcomes, and find out whether other things might also be relevant. I'm not so sure it's that easy; unabashed naked racism such as Casta is quite a different thing than what we might call "subtle racism" as currently exists in countries like the US, but also Europe. Both the effects and the solutions seem quite different to me. > those who seemingly have no concern at all for the plight of oppressed people outside of their own society That seems rather strong. It's not a matter of "not caring", it's that situations in other countries are complex so I don't even understand them, and usually can't really understand them properly even if I tried as I don't speak the language. Besides, what am I supposed to do about something like women's rights in Saudi-Arabia or the plight of native people in the Brazilian rain forests? Post something on Twitter about it in English? Yeah, that'll fix it for sure... --- As a general comment: these terms are always "relative" to a degree. I grew up fairly poor in Western Europe; we never had money for anything, lived without electricity as a child for a while, didn't have things like car, computer, holidays, new clothes, etc. If we compare my situation to various communities in, say, Nigeria I was "rich": clean running water easily available, good free education, good free health care, never truly went hungry, was never homeless, etc. By comparison, I was still "rich". Even in my own country I'm sure many people have had it much worse. Never mind if we start looking at the full historical context and start comparing against people 100, 200, 500, etc. years ago. In spite of all of that, "I grew up poor" is a fairly accurate and reasonable description in the context of growing up in Western Europe. Similarly, you might take issue that structural racism in the US is small compared to something like Casta (or Jim Crow, or many other things), and that is certainly true, but it's not a contest, and for the experience of contemporary people growing up and living in the US ... it doesn't really matter that some other people had it even worse.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    > unabashed naked racism such as Casta is quite a different thing than what we might call "subtle racism" The two are causally linked, though. Overt racism as in Casta gives way to subtler and more structural issues over time. But everything we observe about those places, even today, seems to suggest that these structural issues are highly relevant there. > Post something on Twitter about it in English? Yeah, that'll fix it for sure... It's called raising awareness. In fact, there's more merit in doing so wrt. issues that most are unaware of. Everyone and their dog knows about structural racism in the U.S. by now; very few seem to know or care about the issue as it occurs elsewhere, and in far more problematic forms. > In spite of all of that, "I grew up poor" is a fairly accurate and reasonable description in the context of growing up in Western Europe. Socio-economic marginalization is in fact very different from absolute poverty and deprivation of the kind we might see today in Nigeria. One of the more surprising facts about countries where absolute deprivation is a real concern is the varying correlation between it and social marginalization. People in the historical past were surely living in material deprivation by modern standards but, by and large, they had a rich and tight-knit social life; they were not marginalized as most people in relative poverty might be nowadays in the West.
- edmundsauto 4y ago
  The challenge with looking at these different situations as “experiments” is the number of confounders and/or scarcity of facts. It’s ripe for projection and confirmation bias, best to not draw generalizations or conclusions.

zozbot234 4y ago

> But in the end, I'm not so sure if it really matters all that much when discussing contemporary issues in e.g. the US or Europe. Of course it matters. Even if we only consider those who seemingly have no concern at all for the plight of oppressed people outside of their own society - it's a natural experiment that lets us witness the real, actual consequences of structural racism in their purest form, and over the very long run (a time-span of several centuries in fact). Which is kinda important when you attach so much relevance to it as a causal factor. It lets us compare and contrast outcomes, and find out whether other things might also be relevant.

Beltalowda 4y ago
> kinda important when you attach so much relevance to it as a causal factor. It lets us compare and contrast outcomes, and find out whether other things might also be relevant. I'm not so sure it's that easy; unabashed naked racism such as Casta is quite a different thing than what we might call "subtle racism" as currently exists in countries like the US, but also Europe. Both the effects and the solutions seem quite different to me. > those who seemingly have no concern at all for the plight of oppressed people outside of their own society That seems rather strong. It's not a matter of "not caring", it's that situations in other countries are complex so I don't even understand them, and usually can't really understand them properly even if I tried as I don't speak the language. Besides, what am I supposed to do about something like women's rights in Saudi-Arabia or the plight of native people in the Brazilian rain forests? Post something on Twitter about it in English? Yeah, that'll fix it for sure... --- As a general comment: these terms are always "relative" to a degree. I grew up fairly poor in Western Europe; we never had money for anything, lived without electricity as a child for a while, didn't have things like car, computer, holidays, new clothes, etc. If we compare my situation to various communities in, say, Nigeria I was "rich": clean running water easily available, good free education, good free health care, never truly went hungry, was never homeless, etc. By comparison, I was still "rich". Even in my own country I'm sure many people have had it much worse. Never mind if we start looking at the full historical context and start comparing against people 100, 200, 500, etc. years ago. In spite of all of that, "I grew up poor" is a fairly accurate and reasonable description in the context of growing up in Western Europe. Similarly, you might take issue that structural racism in the US is small compared to something like Casta (or Jim Crow, or many other things), and that is certainly true, but it's not a contest, and for the experience of contemporary people growing up and living in the US ... it doesn't really matter that some other people had it even worse.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  > unabashed naked racism such as Casta is quite a different thing than what we might call "subtle racism" The two are causally linked, though. Overt racism as in Casta gives way to subtler and more structural issues over time. But everything we observe about those places, even today, seems to suggest that these structural issues are highly relevant there. > Post something on Twitter about it in English? Yeah, that'll fix it for sure... It's called raising awareness. In fact, there's more merit in doing so wrt. issues that most are unaware of. Everyone and their dog knows about structural racism in the U.S. by now; very few seem to know or care about the issue as it occurs elsewhere, and in far more problematic forms. > In spite of all of that, "I grew up poor" is a fairly accurate and reasonable description in the context of growing up in Western Europe. Socio-economic marginalization is in fact very different from absolute poverty and deprivation of the kind we might see today in Nigeria. One of the more surprising facts about countries where absolute deprivation is a real concern is the varying correlation between it and social marginalization. People in the historical past were surely living in material deprivation by modern standards but, by and large, they had a rich and tight-knit social life; they were not marginalized as most people in relative poverty might be nowadays in the West.
edmundsauto 4y ago
The challenge with looking at these different situations as “experiments” is the number of confounders and/or scarcity of facts. It’s ripe for projection and confirmation bias, best to not draw generalizations or conclusions.