9 ms·

45nm is massive for a high-performance processor. Rad-hardening compute is frankly overrated. Have multiple and compare state at a high-rate.

by nynx 4y ago

shagie 4y ago
But you can't power multiple on the energy budget that you've got. Perseverance is running on 110 watts ( https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/electrical-power/ https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/electrical-p... ). The RAD5545 uses 20 watts of that budget. Tripling it means it doesn't have enough energy to power the rest of the rover. The Mars MAVEN ( https://spaceflight101.com/maven/spacecraft-information/ https://spaceflight101.com/maven/spacecraft-information/ ) is using a RAD-750 which uses 10 watts of power ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 ) (also used in the JWST). The RAD-750... > The processor can endure radiation doses that are a million times more extreme than what is considered fatal to humans. And while you may argue "yes, that seems a bit excessive" - the goal isn't "it can run in those extremes" but rather... > Also, RAD750 will not suffer more than one event requiring interventions from Earth over a 15-year period. > “The RAD750 card is designed to accommodate all those single event effects and survive them. The ultimate goal is one upset is allowed in 15 years. An upset means an intervention from Earth — one ‘blue screen of death’ in 15 years. We typically have contracts that (specify) that,” said Vic Scuderi BAE Business Manager. ... because it can't be replaced easily. From Wikipedia: > The CPU can withstand an absorbed radiation dose of 2,000 to 10,000 grays
- nynx 4y ago
  You can have one disruptive rad event every 10 minutes if you compare and correct state between three or five computers at something 100 Hz. And a more recent computer that isn't designed for rad-environments will automatically be way more efficnent than a rad-hardened one.
  - shagie 4y ago
    What set of processors would your recommend putting in Perseverance with a 110 watt power budget? Or on JWST with its heat dissipation requirements?
  - tlb 4y ago
    Yes, but you have to compare the complete state of each computer for this to work, including every bit of memory & cache. You can't have much RAM if you're planning to compare them in a few milliseconds. If you try to do this without comparing the whole state, and only comparing the outputs of some control algorithm between the computers, one of them could have some internal state corrupted and remain unnoticed for a long time, long enough for other corruptions to happen on the other computers, and then you have no straightforward way to figure out which one to trust and which to reset.
- incrudible 4y ago
  I do not buy the power argument. A modern chip is orders of magnitude more power efficient, especially at low voltage. You could easily have multiples of these within the same power budget.
  - ilyt 4y ago
    But smaller size increases the chance for event (which might be compensated) but also increases chance for fatal damage to happen. The radiation in space is not dangerous because it just produces a bit of current that can flip a bit; it is dangerous because it is strong enough to bump a bunch out of their position in silicon crystal, causing permanent damage that will accumulate over time. And when your feature size is starting to measure in <100 atoms it would be easy for single high energy event to break whole core.
  - shagie 4y ago
    The modern chip is more power effect by using traces that are closer together and thinner. In the context of radiation hardening by design, this means that a cosmic ray strike could evaporate part of the 5nm trace or cause arcing to the next trace. A lower voltage chip can be more easily permanently damaged by a cosmic ray. That's why the RAD750 has its radiation resistance measured in grays. > The gray (symbol: Gy) is the unit of ionizing radiation dose in the International System of Units (SI), defined as the absorption of one joule of radiation energy per kilogram of matter. This is the total absorbed dose - not the flux. Additionally, this is for the entire system - not just the CPU. It's not just "here is a redundant CPU" but also "here is the entire system that the CPU is part of" that is redundant. The JWST is using a RAD750 with 44 MB of ram... and yea, that's not a lot, we're not trying to ship super computers out there. The alternative that you're suggesting is suggesting putting those all in multiple out in space and checking them against each other constantly while the system is in use collecting data. The power budget is slim and also coupled to the heat dissipation budget. The JWST has a tighter heat dissipation budget than power budget... and the Perseverance has a tighter power budget (total rover power budget is 110 watts). The challenge I'd pose is "what other processor arrangement fits within its power budget?" I'm also going to point out that I got the numbers wrong for Perseverance's power budget for its CPU. The single board is 10 watts, the cpu is 5 watts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 > The CPU can withstand an absorbed radiation dose of 2,000 to 10,000 grays (200,000 to 1,000,000 rads), temperatures between −55 °C and 125 °C, and requires 5 watts of power. The standard RAD750 single-board system (CPU and motherboard) can withstand 1,000 grays (100,000 rads), temperatures between −55 °C and 70 °C, and requires 10 watts of power. https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/brains/ https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/brains/ > Unlike people and most animals, the rover's brains - its computer - are in its boxy body. The computer module is called the Rover Compute Element (RCE) - there are actually two identical RCEs in the body so there is always a spare "brain." Also - https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/50470/what-makes-insights-rad750-processor-so-radiation-resistant-compared-to-1998 https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/50470/what-makes-i... These are modern chips that are designed for that efficiency - it's just that there are other constraints too. You are unlikely to find a lower wattage processor that you can run with redundancy that is able to tolerate space travel. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12567-016-0138-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12567-016-0138-0 Radiation Effects and COTS Parts in SmallSats https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2934&context=smallsat https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2... Note that the cubesat has an average lifespan of about a year.
- numpad0 4y ago
  Power arguments is interesting. Triple redundant 5W processors and 5W more for the redundancy support circuits(must not fail)? Sounds cheaper and easier to just slap on that 20W part, unless that 20W part is so expensive that it outweighs engineer man-hours for the 5W x 3 solution, but I can't see why it would unless said engineers are massively under-paid.
  - shagie 4y ago
    I'm going to correct a previous part - the 20W appears to be the budget for the system. The RAD750 is a 5W processor and on a motherboard, is a 10W system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 > The CPU can withstand an absorbed radiation dose of 2,000 to 10,000 grays (200,000 to 1,000,000 rads), temperatures between −55 °C and 125 °C, and requires 5 watts of power. The standard RAD750 single-board system (CPU and motherboard) can withstand 1,000 grays (100,000 rads), temperatures between −55 °C and 70 °C, and requires 10 watts of power.

45nm is massive for a high-performance processor. Rad-hardening compute is frankly overrated. Have multiple and compare state at a high-rate.

by nynx 4y ago

45nm is massive for a high-performance processor. Rad-hardening compute is frankly overrated. Have multiple and compare state at a high-rate.

shagie 4y ago

But you can't power multiple on the energy budget that you've got. Perseverance is running on 110 watts ( https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/electrical-power/ https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/electrical-p... ). The RAD5545 uses 20 watts of that budget. Tripling it means it doesn't have enough energy to power the rest of the rover. The Mars MAVEN ( https://spaceflight101.com/maven/spacecraft-information/ https://spaceflight101.com/maven/spacecraft-information/ ) is using a RAD-750 which uses 10 watts of power ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 ) (also used in the JWST). The RAD-750... > The processor can endure radiation doses that are a million times more extreme than what is considered fatal to humans. And while you may argue "yes, that seems a bit excessive" - the goal isn't "it can run in those extremes" but rather... > Also, RAD750 will not suffer more than one event requiring interventions from Earth over a 15-year period. > “The RAD750 card is designed to accommodate all those single event effects and survive them. The ultimate goal is one upset is allowed in 15 years. An upset means an intervention from Earth — one ‘blue screen of death’ in 15 years. We typically have contracts that (specify) that,” said Vic Scuderi BAE Business Manager. ... because it can't be replaced easily. From Wikipedia: > The CPU can withstand an absorbed radiation dose of 2,000 to 10,000 grays

nynx 4y ago
You can have one disruptive rad event every 10 minutes if you compare and correct state between three or five computers at something 100 Hz. And a more recent computer that isn't designed for rad-environments will automatically be way more efficnent than a rad-hardened one.
- shagie 4y ago
  What set of processors would your recommend putting in Perseverance with a 110 watt power budget? Or on JWST with its heat dissipation requirements?
- tlb 4y ago
  Yes, but you have to compare the complete state of each computer for this to work, including every bit of memory & cache. You can't have much RAM if you're planning to compare them in a few milliseconds. If you try to do this without comparing the whole state, and only comparing the outputs of some control algorithm between the computers, one of them could have some internal state corrupted and remain unnoticed for a long time, long enough for other corruptions to happen on the other computers, and then you have no straightforward way to figure out which one to trust and which to reset.
incrudible 4y ago
I do not buy the power argument. A modern chip is orders of magnitude more power efficient, especially at low voltage. You could easily have multiples of these within the same power budget.
- ilyt 4y ago
  But smaller size increases the chance for event (which might be compensated) but also increases chance for fatal damage to happen. The radiation in space is not dangerous because it just produces a bit of current that can flip a bit; it is dangerous because it is strong enough to bump a bunch out of their position in silicon crystal, causing permanent damage that will accumulate over time. And when your feature size is starting to measure in <100 atoms it would be easy for single high energy event to break whole core.
- shagie 4y ago
  The modern chip is more power effect by using traces that are closer together and thinner. In the context of radiation hardening by design, this means that a cosmic ray strike could evaporate part of the 5nm trace or cause arcing to the next trace. A lower voltage chip can be more easily permanently damaged by a cosmic ray. That's why the RAD750 has its radiation resistance measured in grays. > The gray (symbol: Gy) is the unit of ionizing radiation dose in the International System of Units (SI), defined as the absorption of one joule of radiation energy per kilogram of matter. This is the total absorbed dose - not the flux. Additionally, this is for the entire system - not just the CPU. It's not just "here is a redundant CPU" but also "here is the entire system that the CPU is part of" that is redundant. The JWST is using a RAD750 with 44 MB of ram... and yea, that's not a lot, we're not trying to ship super computers out there. The alternative that you're suggesting is suggesting putting those all in multiple out in space and checking them against each other constantly while the system is in use collecting data. The power budget is slim and also coupled to the heat dissipation budget. The JWST has a tighter heat dissipation budget than power budget... and the Perseverance has a tighter power budget (total rover power budget is 110 watts). The challenge I'd pose is "what other processor arrangement fits within its power budget?" I'm also going to point out that I got the numbers wrong for Perseverance's power budget for its CPU. The single board is 10 watts, the cpu is 5 watts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 > The CPU can withstand an absorbed radiation dose of 2,000 to 10,000 grays (200,000 to 1,000,000 rads), temperatures between −55 °C and 125 °C, and requires 5 watts of power. The standard RAD750 single-board system (CPU and motherboard) can withstand 1,000 grays (100,000 rads), temperatures between −55 °C and 70 °C, and requires 10 watts of power. https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/brains/ https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/brains/ > Unlike people and most animals, the rover's brains - its computer - are in its boxy body. The computer module is called the Rover Compute Element (RCE) - there are actually two identical RCEs in the body so there is always a spare "brain." Also - https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/50470/what-makes-insights-rad750-processor-so-radiation-resistant-compared-to-1998 https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/50470/what-makes-i... These are modern chips that are designed for that efficiency - it's just that there are other constraints too. You are unlikely to find a lower wattage processor that you can run with redundancy that is able to tolerate space travel. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12567-016-0138-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12567-016-0138-0 Radiation Effects and COTS Parts in SmallSats https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2934&context=smallsat https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2... Note that the cubesat has an average lifespan of about a year.
numpad0 4y ago
Power arguments is interesting. Triple redundant 5W processors and 5W more for the redundancy support circuits(must not fail)? Sounds cheaper and easier to just slap on that 20W part, unless that 20W part is so expensive that it outweighs engineer man-hours for the 5W x 3 solution, but I can't see why it would unless said engineers are massively under-paid.
- shagie 4y ago
  I'm going to correct a previous part - the 20W appears to be the budget for the system. The RAD750 is a 5W processor and on a motherboard, is a 10W system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 > The CPU can withstand an absorbed radiation dose of 2,000 to 10,000 grays (200,000 to 1,000,000 rads), temperatures between −55 °C and 125 °C, and requires 5 watts of power. The standard RAD750 single-board system (CPU and motherboard) can withstand 1,000 grays (100,000 rads), temperatures between −55 °C and 70 °C, and requires 10 watts of power.