8 ms·

I toured those mounds near St Louis.. it's absolutely amazing. Especially since none of my childhood public education made a single effort to state their existe

I toured those mounds near St Louis.. it's absolutely amazing. Especially since none of my childhood public education made a single effort to state their existence, let alone go into just how much of a society existed before we (Europeans) showed up.

mbg721 4y ago
Cahokia is shockingly big, and the idea of multiple successive societies of mound-builders is sort of ignored or taken for granted; the concept of American Indians who wouldn't fit into a John Wayne movie doesn't cross Americans' minds.
- prpl 4y ago
  On that point, can you name even 1 pre-columbian films that doesn’t involve a white person? Here is a relevant wikipedia article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Films_set_in_pre-Columbian_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Films_set_in_pre-Co...
  - mbg721 4y ago
    I don't know many movies set in pre-Columbian America at all. The idea that this was once the largest city in North America north of Mexico and it's as unknown as it is even to people who live nearby is crazy to me.
  - mrexroad 4y ago
    One tragedy, on top of the mountain of others, is that their histories were passed down orally. Much of that has been destroyed. One thing that struck me when I read about The Great Flood of 1862 [0], was that the Native Americans recognized the weather patterns for a series of atmospheric rivers and warned the settlers to relocate to the hills. (Tl;Dr: Central Valley ca was under water for months, Sacramento was abandoned) IIRC, it wasn’t until the 1990s that we had the ability to detect/”recognize” atmospheric rivers with satellites and finally gave them a name. [edit: added link] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_of_1862 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_of_1862
  - throwayyy479087 4y ago
    I’m Hacker News’ resident chud, but this is an actual issue. Natives exist only in relation to colonization. Prey, Apocalypto, and other well-made movies about first peoples ALWAYS include a white guy. Prey was egregious, could have easily only been about natives. Maybe Atanarjuat doesn’t?
    - adolph 4y ago
      It is odd that Apocalypto included conquistadors as contact was very late in the story of the Maya: Meanwhile, the two remaining Raiders chase Jaguar Paw towards the coast, where all three are astonished at the sight of Spanish conquistadors making their way to the shore. As the two Raiders are confounded by the Spanish ships and begin walking towards the coast, Jaguar Paw uses the distraction to flee and return to his village. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypto Although much reduced, a significant Maya presence remained into the Postclassic period after the abandonment of the major Classic period cities; the population was particularly concentrated near permanent water sources.[78] Unlike during previous cycles of contraction in the Maya region, abandoned lands were not quickly resettled in the Postclassic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Postclassic_period_(c._950%E2%80%931539_AD) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Postclassic_...
    - TigeriusKirk 4y ago
      There was a good indie film a while back, On The Ice, that I believe only had native peoples in it. It's a contemporary setting, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Ice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Ice
    - tiahura 4y ago
      Nobody’s old enough to remember Windwalker? A major release in 81 and subtitled.
    - Keysh 4y ago
      If you actually look at the link prpi provided, there are several examples. E.g., Atanarjuat: The Fast Runner (yes), Hiawatha, and Kings of the Sun; if you allow animated films, there's Pachamama and The Emperor's New Groove. More recent examples not in that list include the Canadian movies Maina (2013) and Edge of the Knife (2018).
  - pvaldes 4y ago
    People talk about what they know. A more relevant list probably would be how many American natives are filmmakers. I assume that they have several films without any white on it.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  > concept of American Indians who wouldn't fit into a John Wayne movie doesn't cross Americans' minds “Dances With Wolves”, nominated for 12 Academy awards and won 7. Guess you missed that one.
  - mbg721 4y ago
    I actually haven't seen it, you're right, but my understanding is that it's about the Sioux in the American Western frontier, which is more in line with media stereotypes than, for instance, the Iroquois in New York or Seminoles in Florida.
    - pookah 4y ago
      Comanche were the stereotype. The memory of the Comanche empire would have been fresh in the minds of Americans (and Mexicans) in the classical hollywood era. Comanche held territory from Kansas all the way to Mexico. They literally destroyed Northern Mexico. Europeans have no idea how intense life was for anybody that had to live in and around that tribe. And this was in the 1870's (not the 1400's).
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      With all due respect, perhaps you should see a seminal film before making sweeping judgements of American film portrayal of Native Americas? I'm not sure what your reference to the Iroquois and Seminoles has to do with it. Certain tribes are in American awareness more than others. That happened pre-TV and modern-day media. I don't think you get to decide who Kevin Costner writes films about, but you could write your own.
ijidak 4y ago
Wow! As an American that feels somewhat knowledgeable about Native American history, I can't believe I've never heard of this!?!? Sadly, the effect of past racisms and prejudices still distort what has become common knowledge today.
- wardedVibe 4y ago
  You might want to read 1491.
mason55 4y ago
That’s interesting. Where I grew up in central Ohio, we had a whole year of “Ohio history” in, I think, 4th grade. We spent a ton of time on the Ohio mound builders and even took a class trip to see the mounds. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_Mound https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_Mound
- mbg721 4y ago
  Serpent Mound and Sunwatch are the big show-stoppers, but lots of Ohioans have mounds practically in their backyards. My dad used to joke that the Adena and Hopewell had some mounds for burial, and some for religious rituals, but the one near our house was where they threw their empty beer bottles.
  - throwayyy479087 4y ago
    There’s oyster cairns all over NYs coastal and riparian plains. Not protected or anything, you can go and poke around
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      Maine, too.
- mrexroad 4y ago
  > “[…] archaeologists believe that the mound's creation could have been influenced by two different astronomical events: the light from the supernova that created the Crab Nebula in the year 1054 CE […] The light of the supernova would have been visible for two weeks after it first reached earth, which could even be seen in broad day light.“ I can’t even begin to imagine how humans would have interpreted such an event.
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    Historical records from the year 1054 are available (and are of course the reason we date the nebula to "1054" rather than "the eleventh century"). You can just go see what people of the time thought. Wikipedia doesn't quote the records associated with 1054, but does quote the record of a supernova in the year 185: > In the 2nd year of the epoch Zhongping [中平], the 10th month, on the day Guihai [癸亥] [December 7, Year 185], a 'guest star' appeared in the middle of the Southern Gate [南門] [an asterism consisting of ε Centauri and α Centauri], The size was half a bamboo mat. It displayed various colors, both pleasing and otherwise. It gradually lessened. In the 6th month of the succeeding year it disappeared. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_185 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_185 ) What people thought appears to have been "sometimes there are new stars, but they go away again".
rayiner 4y ago
Where did you go to elementary school? In Virginia we spent enormous amounts of time (way too long) covering Native American history.
- Avshalom 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - jcranmer 4y ago
    I wouldn't say we spent too long covering it, but having grown up near rayiner but a decade or so after from them, we covered it several times. It was the first unit of 6th and 11th grade US history, as well as 4th grade state history, and tangentially covered in 5th grade world history.
    - moloch-hai 4y ago
      In Hawaii I mostly got Laplanders, year after year. I guess they are Sami now?
- throwayyy479087 4y ago
  Same. Any time someone complains about X not being taught in school, it’s important to remember that it likely is taught and they likely didn’t pay attention. Hell, we made atlatls in middle school

mbg721 4y ago

Cahokia is shockingly big, and the idea of multiple successive societies of mound-builders is sort of ignored or taken for granted; the concept of American Indians who wouldn't fit into a John Wayne movie doesn't cross Americans' minds.

prpl 4y ago
On that point, can you name even 1 pre-columbian films that doesn’t involve a white person? Here is a relevant wikipedia article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Films_set_in_pre-Columbian_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Films_set_in_pre-Co...
- mbg721 4y ago
  I don't know many movies set in pre-Columbian America at all. The idea that this was once the largest city in North America north of Mexico and it's as unknown as it is even to people who live nearby is crazy to me.
- mrexroad 4y ago
  One tragedy, on top of the mountain of others, is that their histories were passed down orally. Much of that has been destroyed. One thing that struck me when I read about The Great Flood of 1862 [0], was that the Native Americans recognized the weather patterns for a series of atmospheric rivers and warned the settlers to relocate to the hills. (Tl;Dr: Central Valley ca was under water for months, Sacramento was abandoned) IIRC, it wasn’t until the 1990s that we had the ability to detect/”recognize” atmospheric rivers with satellites and finally gave them a name. [edit: added link] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_of_1862 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_of_1862
- throwayyy479087 4y ago
  I’m Hacker News’ resident chud, but this is an actual issue. Natives exist only in relation to colonization. Prey, Apocalypto, and other well-made movies about first peoples ALWAYS include a white guy. Prey was egregious, could have easily only been about natives. Maybe Atanarjuat doesn’t?
  - adolph 4y ago
    It is odd that Apocalypto included conquistadors as contact was very late in the story of the Maya: Meanwhile, the two remaining Raiders chase Jaguar Paw towards the coast, where all three are astonished at the sight of Spanish conquistadors making their way to the shore. As the two Raiders are confounded by the Spanish ships and begin walking towards the coast, Jaguar Paw uses the distraction to flee and return to his village. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypto Although much reduced, a significant Maya presence remained into the Postclassic period after the abandonment of the major Classic period cities; the population was particularly concentrated near permanent water sources.[78] Unlike during previous cycles of contraction in the Maya region, abandoned lands were not quickly resettled in the Postclassic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Postclassic_period_(c._950%E2%80%931539_AD) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Postclassic_...
  - TigeriusKirk 4y ago
    There was a good indie film a while back, On The Ice, that I believe only had native peoples in it. It's a contemporary setting, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Ice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Ice
  - tiahura 4y ago
    Nobody’s old enough to remember Windwalker? A major release in 81 and subtitled.
  - Keysh 4y ago
    If you actually look at the link prpi provided, there are several examples. E.g., Atanarjuat: The Fast Runner (yes), Hiawatha, and Kings of the Sun; if you allow animated films, there's Pachamama and The Emperor's New Groove. More recent examples not in that list include the Canadian movies Maina (2013) and Edge of the Knife (2018).
- pvaldes 4y ago
  People talk about what they know. A more relevant list probably would be how many American natives are filmmakers. I assume that they have several films without any white on it.
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
> concept of American Indians who wouldn't fit into a John Wayne movie doesn't cross Americans' minds “Dances With Wolves”, nominated for 12 Academy awards and won 7. Guess you missed that one.
- mbg721 4y ago
  I actually haven't seen it, you're right, but my understanding is that it's about the Sioux in the American Western frontier, which is more in line with media stereotypes than, for instance, the Iroquois in New York or Seminoles in Florida.
  - pookah 4y ago
    Comanche were the stereotype. The memory of the Comanche empire would have been fresh in the minds of Americans (and Mexicans) in the classical hollywood era. Comanche held territory from Kansas all the way to Mexico. They literally destroyed Northern Mexico. Europeans have no idea how intense life was for anybody that had to live in and around that tribe. And this was in the 1870's (not the 1400's).
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    With all due respect, perhaps you should see a seminal film before making sweeping judgements of American film portrayal of Native Americas? I'm not sure what your reference to the Iroquois and Seminoles has to do with it. Certain tribes are in American awareness more than others. That happened pre-TV and modern-day media. I don't think you get to decide who Kevin Costner writes films about, but you could write your own.

ijidak 4y ago

Wow! As an American that feels somewhat knowledgeable about Native American history, I can't believe I've never heard of this!?!? Sadly, the effect of past racisms and prejudices still distort what has become common knowledge today.

wardedVibe 4y ago
You might want to read 1491.

mason55 4y ago

That’s interesting. Where I grew up in central Ohio, we had a whole year of “Ohio history” in, I think, 4th grade. We spent a ton of time on the Ohio mound builders and even took a class trip to see the mounds. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_Mound https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_Mound

mbg721 4y ago
Serpent Mound and Sunwatch are the big show-stoppers, but lots of Ohioans have mounds practically in their backyards. My dad used to joke that the Adena and Hopewell had some mounds for burial, and some for religious rituals, but the one near our house was where they threw their empty beer bottles.
- throwayyy479087 4y ago
  There’s oyster cairns all over NYs coastal and riparian plains. Not protected or anything, you can go and poke around
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    Maine, too.
mrexroad 4y ago
> “[…] archaeologists believe that the mound's creation could have been influenced by two different astronomical events: the light from the supernova that created the Crab Nebula in the year 1054 CE […] The light of the supernova would have been visible for two weeks after it first reached earth, which could even be seen in broad day light.“ I can’t even begin to imagine how humans would have interpreted such an event.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  Historical records from the year 1054 are available (and are of course the reason we date the nebula to "1054" rather than "the eleventh century"). You can just go see what people of the time thought. Wikipedia doesn't quote the records associated with 1054, but does quote the record of a supernova in the year 185: > In the 2nd year of the epoch Zhongping [中平], the 10th month, on the day Guihai [癸亥] [December 7, Year 185], a 'guest star' appeared in the middle of the Southern Gate [南門] [an asterism consisting of ε Centauri and α Centauri], The size was half a bamboo mat. It displayed various colors, both pleasing and otherwise. It gradually lessened. In the 6th month of the succeeding year it disappeared. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_185 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_185 ) What people thought appears to have been "sometimes there are new stars, but they go away again".

rayiner 4y ago

Where did you go to elementary school? In Virginia we spent enormous amounts of time (way too long) covering Native American history.

Avshalom 4y ago
[flagged]
- jcranmer 4y ago
  I wouldn't say we spent too long covering it, but having grown up near rayiner but a decade or so after from them, we covered it several times. It was the first unit of 6th and 11th grade US history, as well as 4th grade state history, and tangentially covered in 5th grade world history.
  - moloch-hai 4y ago
    In Hawaii I mostly got Laplanders, year after year. I guess they are Sami now?
throwayyy479087 4y ago
Same. Any time someone complains about X not being taught in school, it’s important to remember that it likely is taught and they likely didn’t pay attention. Hell, we made atlatls in middle school