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> does that vindicate the idea that tech workers should have codified the benefits they enjoyed during the good times, through unionizing? It seems like one is

> does that vindicate the idea that tech workers should have codified the benefits they enjoyed during the good times, through unionizing? It seems like one is unrelated to the other. The goal is good — to get back to the good times. But the path from here to there seems unlikely to pass through a union, at least for most tech workers. It would help to list some of the perceived benefits of unionizing. Then we’d be able to quantify an answer. Without a specific target, it’s hard to say whether a certain proposal might get there. Later: The recent layoffs are a good example of one of the benefits of unionizing. Theoretically, companies would have a tough time reducing head count if we were organized. But that raises the question of whether 14 weeks of severance is sufficient. For me it would’ve been, but there are a great many who wouldn’t have. Are there other benefits besides layoff protection? Discussions like these often focus on the downsides of unionization. It’s hard to recall one extolling the virtues.

yerpyerpyerp 4y ago
> It would help to list some of the perceived benefits of unionizing. It helps to look at other highly-skilled workers that are unionized, and pro athletes are a particularly interesting as a case-study for modern organized labor. They get profit-sharing and guaranteed raises built into their contracts. No need to wade through the BS of exercising shares that may or may not be worth something down the road. There are obviously many differences between the revenue that pro athletes generate and earn compared to tech workers, but if anything, I believe that it shows that tech workers leave a lot on the table by not unionizing. Additionally, organized labor would give more power to workers in termination situations. Right now, lots of people are being laid off because companies raised headcount irresponsibly and are now dealing with it by trimming their staffs. A unionized workplace is in a much better position to demand more favorable separation terms (guaranteed insurance, severance, etc.) in order to disincentivize employers from irresponsibly hiring and firing. If we're gonna be sacrificed in a market downturn, we should always be taken care of.
- _3u10 4y ago
  Given the P/E ratio for tech shares are generally better than profit sharing, especially in R&D heavy industries. The companies that go under don’t tend to have a lot of profit.
- philwelch 4y ago
  Pro athletes are orders of magnitude away from tech workers in terms of how valuable and irreplaceable they are. There are fewer than 500 NBA players and fewer than 1700 NFL players on current rosters, and few of them can be usefully replaced by anyone not currently in the league. Also, tech is a fairly open marketplace. John Carmack can start his own company and has done so multiple times, but LeBron James can’t start or even buy his own NBA franchise if he wants to play. So while professional sports owners are an obvious, fixed counterparty to the players in a collective bargaining sense, the top tech workers can be and often are the owners and management of tech companies.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    Doctors, psychiatrists, and lawyers all of professional organizations that effectively function as unions. And the SAG includes many workers beyond the marquee film stars.
    - philwelch 4y ago
      Yes, let’s talk about the doctors, then. Thanks to the AMA (the de facto US doctors union), there is a deliberate and structural shortage of doctors in order to deliberately prop up the pay for US doctors. It’s also virtually impossible for any practicing physician outside the US—even in other developed countries—to immigrate to the US and continue practicing medicine. This has obvious negative consequences for the availability, affordability, and cost of health care in the United States.
      - Apocryphon 4y ago
        The AMA's actions were undesirable, but that just goes to show the power it wielded on behalf of its members, and the occupation it represented. Imagine if the IEEE/ACM could lobby for SWEs as effectively, but in a socially desirable way. Also, perhaps in the present or future, the AMA could use its own power to undo the mistakes it made in the past: https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2022/03/15/ama-scope-of-practice-lobbying/ https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2022/03/15/ama-scope...
Apocryphon 4y ago
> Are there other benefits besides layoff protection? Discussions like these often focus on the downsides of unionization. It’s hard to recall one extolling the virtues. It's less about preventing layoffs, than preventing employers behaving differently from they did during the good years. Slashing benefits, imposing harsher conditions, and so forth. It just feels like we're in a grasshopper and the ants situation and if winter comes, we're going to be inundated with news stories about tech corporate management undertaking gross and appalling actions that would have been unthinkable, or easily avoidable, during the boom times.
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
> Are there other benefits besides layoff protection? Yes. I want: - union-paid lawyers to back me up if I refuse to follow illegal or unethical demands from management - H1B Visa protections and networks to help laid off H1B visa workers to find work - non-visa workers to legally back and support their visa peers to prevent abusing visa workers knowing they can't leave - sane on-call standards I can point to when negotiating my employment - extra pay if my manager wants to make me work evenings, weekends, or holidays - union-paid contract lawyers to protect my open source and personal side projects from my employer's greed - union-paid advisors on equity offerings, including tax effects - sane layoff requirements and legal teeth to sue if layoff contracts aren't met
- sillysaurusx 4y ago
  Honestly all of these are pretty appealing, and reasonable. Excellent list. I didn’t expect to be swayed, yet that was a tilt in the direction of unionization. The H1B situation in particular is indentured servitude, and I’m not sure why it hasn’t become an issue yet. I remember one fellow in particular from my time at Scottrade; it seemed like he was there 14 hours a day. I only noticed because of my erratic sleep schedule. In hindsight it was pretty obviously an H1B situation. The advisors are a benefit I never knew I wanted. In hindsight it seems strange to have to navigate it by ourselves.

yerpyerpyerp 4y ago

> It would help to list some of the perceived benefits of unionizing. It helps to look at other highly-skilled workers that are unionized, and pro athletes are a particularly interesting as a case-study for modern organized labor. They get profit-sharing and guaranteed raises built into their contracts. No need to wade through the BS of exercising shares that may or may not be worth something down the road. There are obviously many differences between the revenue that pro athletes generate and earn compared to tech workers, but if anything, I believe that it shows that tech workers leave a lot on the table by not unionizing. Additionally, organized labor would give more power to workers in termination situations. Right now, lots of people are being laid off because companies raised headcount irresponsibly and are now dealing with it by trimming their staffs. A unionized workplace is in a much better position to demand more favorable separation terms (guaranteed insurance, severance, etc.) in order to disincentivize employers from irresponsibly hiring and firing. If we're gonna be sacrificed in a market downturn, we should always be taken care of.

_3u10 4y ago
Given the P/E ratio for tech shares are generally better than profit sharing, especially in R&D heavy industries. The companies that go under don’t tend to have a lot of profit.
philwelch 4y ago
Pro athletes are orders of magnitude away from tech workers in terms of how valuable and irreplaceable they are. There are fewer than 500 NBA players and fewer than 1700 NFL players on current rosters, and few of them can be usefully replaced by anyone not currently in the league. Also, tech is a fairly open marketplace. John Carmack can start his own company and has done so multiple times, but LeBron James can’t start or even buy his own NBA franchise if he wants to play. So while professional sports owners are an obvious, fixed counterparty to the players in a collective bargaining sense, the top tech workers can be and often are the owners and management of tech companies.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Doctors, psychiatrists, and lawyers all of professional organizations that effectively function as unions. And the SAG includes many workers beyond the marquee film stars.
  - philwelch 4y ago
    Yes, let’s talk about the doctors, then. Thanks to the AMA (the de facto US doctors union), there is a deliberate and structural shortage of doctors in order to deliberately prop up the pay for US doctors. It’s also virtually impossible for any practicing physician outside the US—even in other developed countries—to immigrate to the US and continue practicing medicine. This has obvious negative consequences for the availability, affordability, and cost of health care in the United States.
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      The AMA's actions were undesirable, but that just goes to show the power it wielded on behalf of its members, and the occupation it represented. Imagine if the IEEE/ACM could lobby for SWEs as effectively, but in a socially desirable way. Also, perhaps in the present or future, the AMA could use its own power to undo the mistakes it made in the past: https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2022/03/15/ama-scope-of-practice-lobbying/ https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2022/03/15/ama-scope...

Apocryphon 4y ago

> Are there other benefits besides layoff protection? Discussions like these often focus on the downsides of unionization. It’s hard to recall one extolling the virtues. It's less about preventing layoffs, than preventing employers behaving differently from they did during the good years. Slashing benefits, imposing harsher conditions, and so forth. It just feels like we're in a grasshopper and the ants situation and if winter comes, we're going to be inundated with news stories about tech corporate management undertaking gross and appalling actions that would have been unthinkable, or easily avoidable, during the boom times.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago

> Are there other benefits besides layoff protection? Yes. I want: - union-paid lawyers to back me up if I refuse to follow illegal or unethical demands from management - H1B Visa protections and networks to help laid off H1B visa workers to find work - non-visa workers to legally back and support their visa peers to prevent abusing visa workers knowing they can't leave - sane on-call standards I can point to when negotiating my employment - extra pay if my manager wants to make me work evenings, weekends, or holidays - union-paid contract lawyers to protect my open source and personal side projects from my employer's greed - union-paid advisors on equity offerings, including tax effects - sane layoff requirements and legal teeth to sue if layoff contracts aren't met

sillysaurusx 4y ago
Honestly all of these are pretty appealing, and reasonable. Excellent list. I didn’t expect to be swayed, yet that was a tilt in the direction of unionization. The H1B situation in particular is indentured servitude, and I’m not sure why it hasn’t become an issue yet. I remember one fellow in particular from my time at Scottrade; it seemed like he was there 14 hours a day. I only noticed because of my erratic sleep schedule. In hindsight it was pretty obviously an H1B situation. The advisors are a benefit I never knew I wanted. In hindsight it seems strange to have to navigate it by ourselves.