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High-speed rail requires a new railway that has no grade crossings of highways, has wider-radius curves than freight lines, can have higher grades than freight

High-speed rail requires a new railway that has no grade crossings of highways, has wider-radius curves than freight lines, can have higher grades than freight lines, and has better rails and sleepers. There is no chance of getting new high-speed railways built through the outskirts of major metro areas, so there will always be long end sections operating at less than 90 mph. Smaller cities along the lines will also want service, so trains will have to decelerate, loiter, and accelerate multiple times between major metro areas. The end result is that in the US high-speed rail is impossible to build, and it would operate on average at far less than the maximum speed. Acela on the Northeast Corridor is about as fast as it will get. Even there, Boston to NY times could be improved by realigning some tracks in eastern CT and RI to remove tight curves, but even that has not been done.

rhaway84773 4y ago
The problem in US infrastructure is that money is spent for its show value as opposed to effectiveness. If we were spending money effectively, it would be many years before any rail infrastructure funds would go to any network outside the NorthEast corridor. Almost every project there will provide tons more value than anything in the rest of the US. And once the corridor is fully operational in an effective manner (there is no reason, for example, that flights between Boston and NYC, and DC and NYC, should even exist…Amtrak should be able to wipe them out by running 15 minute trains and eliminating some of the unnecessary slowness you’ve described), it can provide a working model to the rest of the nation, which is the point at which we can start spending rail infrastructure funds elsewhere.
stuaxo 4y ago
Once the line is in, later work can address the slower sections. HS1 (the section of high speed rail from London to the channel tunnel), was probably partially built as it was embarrassingoy obvious going from french HSR to the British Victorian era railways. Infill can always come later once the core is there.
gernb 4y ago
HSR in Japan they just have different trains on the same tracks but double the tracks at some stations so the non-stop train can pass the stop-at-every-station-trains. So you can service the smaller towns and the still have a maximum speed train
bryananderson 4y ago
> The end result is that in the US high-speed rail is impossible to build, and it would operate on average at far less than the maximum speed. > Acela on the Northeast Corridor is about as fast as it will get. None of this is true—you’re just assuming it. HSR stations in smaller cities exist everywhere in the world—the way you make it work is that not every train stops at every small station. It’s not that hard. The way you avoid slow zones is usually by keeping HSR out of the center of small cities, and having the station on the outskirts. Unfortunately CA HSR has mostly failed to do this, but it can absolutely be done elsewhere in America. And it’s not a problem unique to America at all! Even countries with excellent HSR like Italy have slower sections in major cities. It’s not a dealbreaker as long as you only do it where necessary. Again, absolutely nothing you mentioned is unique to the US. Nor are many cities in the US actually too far apart for HSR to beat the pants off driving and flying. Sure, isolated cities like Denver and SLC may never get HSR. But LA-SF could be done in probably 2:15 with an optimal route (and even 2:45 with the actual bad route), which totally beats a 5-hour drive or a 3.5-4 hour airport odyssey. Alon Levy is an expert who has actually done the work (based on globally-proven mathematical models of ridership) instead of making vague evidence-free vibes-based assertions. [0] [1] [2] Acela is absolutely not the best the Northeast Corridor can get. Boston-DC is possible in about 3:20 with normal developed-world infrastructure. Levy again: [3] CA HSR is indeed a one-stop shop for everything that’s wrong with rail development in the US. But that doesn’t mean the answer is to curl up in the fetal position and surrender. It can and must be done right. [0] https://pedestrianobservations.com/2022/12/22/midwestern-urban-geography-and-high-speed-rail/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2022/12/22/midwestern-urb... [1] https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/12/20/metcalfes-law-for-high-speed-rail-redux/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/12/20/metcalfes-law-... [2] https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/02/13/metcalfes-law-for-high-speed-rail/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/02/13/metcalfes-law-... [3] https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/04/29/some-notes-about-northeast-corridor-high-speed-rail/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/04/29/some-notes-abo...

rhaway84773 4y ago

The problem in US infrastructure is that money is spent for its show value as opposed to effectiveness. If we were spending money effectively, it would be many years before any rail infrastructure funds would go to any network outside the NorthEast corridor. Almost every project there will provide tons more value than anything in the rest of the US. And once the corridor is fully operational in an effective manner (there is no reason, for example, that flights between Boston and NYC, and DC and NYC, should even exist…Amtrak should be able to wipe them out by running 15 minute trains and eliminating some of the unnecessary slowness you’ve described), it can provide a working model to the rest of the nation, which is the point at which we can start spending rail infrastructure funds elsewhere.

stuaxo 4y ago

Once the line is in, later work can address the slower sections. HS1 (the section of high speed rail from London to the channel tunnel), was probably partially built as it was embarrassingoy obvious going from french HSR to the British Victorian era railways. Infill can always come later once the core is there.

gernb 4y ago

HSR in Japan they just have different trains on the same tracks but double the tracks at some stations so the non-stop train can pass the stop-at-every-station-trains. So you can service the smaller towns and the still have a maximum speed train

bryananderson 4y ago

> The end result is that in the US high-speed rail is impossible to build, and it would operate on average at far less than the maximum speed. > Acela on the Northeast Corridor is about as fast as it will get. None of this is true—you’re just assuming it. HSR stations in smaller cities exist everywhere in the world—the way you make it work is that not every train stops at every small station. It’s not that hard. The way you avoid slow zones is usually by keeping HSR out of the center of small cities, and having the station on the outskirts. Unfortunately CA HSR has mostly failed to do this, but it can absolutely be done elsewhere in America. And it’s not a problem unique to America at all! Even countries with excellent HSR like Italy have slower sections in major cities. It’s not a dealbreaker as long as you only do it where necessary. Again, absolutely nothing you mentioned is unique to the US. Nor are many cities in the US actually too far apart for HSR to beat the pants off driving and flying. Sure, isolated cities like Denver and SLC may never get HSR. But LA-SF could be done in probably 2:15 with an optimal route (and even 2:45 with the actual bad route), which totally beats a 5-hour drive or a 3.5-4 hour airport odyssey. Alon Levy is an expert who has actually done the work (based on globally-proven mathematical models of ridership) instead of making vague evidence-free vibes-based assertions. [0] [1] [2] Acela is absolutely not the best the Northeast Corridor can get. Boston-DC is possible in about 3:20 with normal developed-world infrastructure. Levy again: [3] CA HSR is indeed a one-stop shop for everything that’s wrong with rail development in the US. But that doesn’t mean the answer is to curl up in the fetal position and surrender. It can and must be done right. [0] https://pedestrianobservations.com/2022/12/22/midwestern-urban-geography-and-high-speed-rail/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2022/12/22/midwestern-urb... [1] https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/12/20/metcalfes-law-for-high-speed-rail-redux/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/12/20/metcalfes-law-... [2] https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/02/13/metcalfes-law-for-high-speed-rail/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/02/13/metcalfes-law-... [3] https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/04/29/some-notes-about-northeast-corridor-high-speed-rail/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/04/29/some-notes-abo...