5 ms·

Transformer Prime Sold with Locked Bootloader

47 points by jdhopeunique 15y ago

dkhenry 15y ago
It is great to see this issue getting some media attention. There is no reason whatsoever to lock this bootloader.
- technoslut 15y ago
  The only reason they could do this is to curb customer support calls. I don't like what Asus did either, since this is supposed to be an open source product, but I'm willing to bet that Asus already believes that: a. They're the #3 tablet behind the iPad and Kindle Fire in terms of sales and they may be fine with that as long as they're the primary Android-based alternative. b. They're the only successful pure Android tablet maker whose design aesthetics rivals the iPad.
  - avree 15y ago
    I've never really understood this logic; is there really a large percentage of people who flash a custom ROM and then call customer support for help? This is just conjecture, but I feel like those two groups (people who flash custom ROMs versus people who call customer support) are fairly opposite...
    - marshray 15y ago
      I agree, but in searching around on some Samsung forums last night I did come across someone who had accidentally gotten into "reflash mode" (or whatever they call it) and had no idea how to fix it (i.e., hold down the power button for 10 seconds). Run this story up the chain of command and what comes down from management may very well be "lock the bootloader so we don't end up like Sony", even though that may not be the root cause. Still, I'd thought better of ASUS.
  - RexRollman 15y ago
    You're probably right but that could be addressed by shipping it locked down but giving the end user a way to unlock it should they desire (Google did this on the Chromebooks). The only other reason I can think of would be if content vendors, say Hulu or Netflix or Spotify, required it for inclusion of their software.
    - there 15y ago
      Google did this on the Chromebooks the production chromebooks by samsung and acer have a developer switch to allow running custom builds of chromeos, but not the bios-write toggle that the google cr48 had. the cr48 allowed flashing a custom bios that lets it run windows or any other operating system. it's just like android; google-built devices allow the user to completely change them but once other manufacturers got involved, they decided to change the rules and restrict what the user can do.
alexchamberlain 15y ago
I was going to buy one of these... Could it not be argued this is anti-competitive?
- Terretta 15y ago
  Is what anti-competitive? Against what "competitors"? Sounds like locking the boot rom is good for ASUS' competitors based on the comments there and here.
  - alexchamberlain 15y ago
    I'm sure you could get a stock ARM Linux distro booting on there if you tried hard enough... Think Microsoft and IE.
    - Terretta 15y ago
      Except ASUS isn't in the OS business or software business. They're purely in the hardware business. If you can't run other stuff on their hardware and you want to run other stuff, the rational response is to buy other hardware – hence, good for ASUS competitors. It's not anti-competitive, it's free market.
      - alexchamberlain 15y ago
        There will be a custom Android build shipped with the hardware...
- marshray 15y ago
  I was about to order one too. Instead I went out last night and bought a Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1. https://twitter.com/#!/marshray/status/154039917322838017 https://twitter.com/#!/marshray/status/154039917322838017 The bootloader isn't locked, but the 'Heimdall' flash backup/restore tool doesn't work with it. (yet :-)
  - alexchamberlain 15y ago
nodata 15y ago
Good. Now I have a reason not to buy one.
keeperofdakeys 15y ago
The original Asus Transformer sold with an unlocked boot loader, and many linux distros can be used on it. The question is, since the first device had an unlocked bootloader, is it a reasonable assumption that the new model would too? Since it is not just a new revision, I don't think so.
- RexRollman 15y ago
  I understand what you are saying but it is also reasonable to be pissed when the follow on model takes away an ability the previous one had.
- jsnell 15y ago
  They already switched to a locked bootloader in later revisions of the Transformer. It is a pain, since Android just doesn't work that well with this form factor, but the hardware can't be repurposed to run Ubuntu either.
- jevinskie 15y ago
  The original Transformer (TF101) has always had a locked bootloader. The key for the first revisions was leaked by someone inside Asus, allowing ROM flashing. Asus changed the key and now people with newer TF101s cannot flash their own ROMs.
raganwald 15y ago
Myth: Android puts users in control. Fact: Android puts manufacturers in control. Some manufacturers, of course, choose to allow users to exercise some control over their devices. But "Android" is no guarantee of this.
- pyre 15y ago
  Android doesn't put manufacturers in control. Manufacturers are inherently in control regardless of the OS. It's not like the iPhone/iPad takes control away from manufacturers because Apple is the only manufacturer, and they definitely have full control over iOS.
  - recoiledsnake 15y ago
    Your point is negated by Windows Phone 7. Manufacturers and carriers do not have much control over it. All they get is a bigger tile for one program and all preloaded stuff is easily uninstallable with a long press. No always-running battery sucking services in the background are allowed by Microsoft and the phone has to pass strict battery and hardware tests performed by Microsoft before it can be released. So it is indeed accurate to state that Android puts manufacturers in control.
    - moe 15y ago
      All they get is a bigger tile for one program and all preloaded stuff is easily uninstallable with a long press. No always-running battery sucking services in the background are allowed by Microsoft and the phone has to pass strict battery and hardware tests performed by Microsoft before it can be released. This was new to me and sounds like an extra-ordinarily good idea. Seems at last here is one lesson that google should learn from Microsoft.
      - cooldeal 15y ago
        The OEMs get a special section of the Marketplace where they can have special apps for just their phones. For example, the HTC apps cannot be installed on Samsung phones. This is a much better way for the OEMs to differentiate and add value rather than put in uninstallable software.
lawnchair_larry 15y ago
More "RMS was right".
peterfschaadt 15y ago
Looks like they caved and will release a tool soon to unlock the bootloader. It will void the warranty and disable Google Market video rentals. http://www.bgr.com/2012/01/03/asus-confirms-intent-to-release-transformer-prime-bootloader-unlocking-tool/ http://www.bgr.com/2012/01/03/asus-confirms-intent-to-releas...
mattwdelong 15y ago
Just did some research, and I don't know about the validity of the statement [1], but it was said that Asus Taiwan [2] released a press statement, which said: > BOOTLOADER: they won't unlock the bootloader, and the purpose of locked bootloader is to support media renting service (due to DRM restrictions, and many entertainment industries requested it) on the device and its stability. BUT, they are working on releasing a bootloader unlocking tool for those users who would like to unlock it. however, the use of this unlocker tool will void the warranty immediately. Perhaps someone with Mandarin could visit the page and verify the statement? If that's the case, it's a perfectly reasonable response. [1] https://www.facebook.com/asus.n.america/posts/271258449600988 https://www.facebook.com/asus.n.america/posts/27125844960098... [2] https://www.facebook.com/asusclub.tw?sk=wall https://www.facebook.com/asusclub.tw?sk=wall
alexlitov 15y ago
Taken from their Facebook page: Regarding the bootloader, the reason we chose to lock it is due to content providers' requirement for DRM client devices to be as secure as possible. ASUS supports Google DRM in order to provide users with a high quality video rental experience. Also, based on our experience, users who choose to root their devices risk breaking the system completely. However, we know there is demand in the modding community to have an unlocked bootloader. Therefore, ASUS is developing an unlock tool for that community. Please do note that if you choose to unlock your device, the ASUS warranty will be void, and Google video rental will also be unavailable because the device will be no longer protected by security mechanism.
- r00fus 15y ago
  Why is it that a bootloader needs to be locked in order for rentals to be available? Hasn't iTunes movie rentals/purchases proven that a relatively open OS + DRM is adequate for content protection? It's shit like this combined with a distinct lack of upgrades from the Android manufacturers that keep me using an iPad or (far more open) laptop for my computing needs... for tablet computing, Apple will always have an advantage if things like CM9 aren't allowed, since Apple builds both iOS and the hardware.

47 points by jdhopeunique 15y ago

dkhenry 15y ago

It is great to see this issue getting some media attention. There is no reason whatsoever to lock this bootloader.

technoslut 15y ago
The only reason they could do this is to curb customer support calls. I don't like what Asus did either, since this is supposed to be an open source product, but I'm willing to bet that Asus already believes that: a. They're the #3 tablet behind the iPad and Kindle Fire in terms of sales and they may be fine with that as long as they're the primary Android-based alternative. b. They're the only successful pure Android tablet maker whose design aesthetics rivals the iPad.
- avree 15y ago
  I've never really understood this logic; is there really a large percentage of people who flash a custom ROM and then call customer support for help? This is just conjecture, but I feel like those two groups (people who flash custom ROMs versus people who call customer support) are fairly opposite...
  - marshray 15y ago
    I agree, but in searching around on some Samsung forums last night I did come across someone who had accidentally gotten into "reflash mode" (or whatever they call it) and had no idea how to fix it (i.e., hold down the power button for 10 seconds). Run this story up the chain of command and what comes down from management may very well be "lock the bootloader so we don't end up like Sony", even though that may not be the root cause. Still, I'd thought better of ASUS.
- RexRollman 15y ago
  You're probably right but that could be addressed by shipping it locked down but giving the end user a way to unlock it should they desire (Google did this on the Chromebooks). The only other reason I can think of would be if content vendors, say Hulu or Netflix or Spotify, required it for inclusion of their software.
  - there 15y ago
    Google did this on the Chromebooks the production chromebooks by samsung and acer have a developer switch to allow running custom builds of chromeos, but not the bios-write toggle that the google cr48 had. the cr48 allowed flashing a custom bios that lets it run windows or any other operating system. it's just like android; google-built devices allow the user to completely change them but once other manufacturers got involved, they decided to change the rules and restrict what the user can do.

alexchamberlain 15y ago

I was going to buy one of these... Could it not be argued this is anti-competitive?

Terretta 15y ago
Is what anti-competitive? Against what "competitors"? Sounds like locking the boot rom is good for ASUS' competitors based on the comments there and here.
- alexchamberlain 15y ago
  I'm sure you could get a stock ARM Linux distro booting on there if you tried hard enough... Think Microsoft and IE.
  - Terretta 15y ago
    Except ASUS isn't in the OS business or software business. They're purely in the hardware business. If you can't run other stuff on their hardware and you want to run other stuff, the rational response is to buy other hardware – hence, good for ASUS competitors. It's not anti-competitive, it's free market.
    - alexchamberlain 15y ago
      There will be a custom Android build shipped with the hardware...
marshray 15y ago
I was about to order one too. Instead I went out last night and bought a Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1. https://twitter.com/#!/marshray/status/154039917322838017 https://twitter.com/#!/marshray/status/154039917322838017 The bootloader isn't locked, but the 'Heimdall' flash backup/restore tool doesn't work with it. (yet :-)
- alexchamberlain 15y ago

nodata 15y ago

Good. Now I have a reason not to buy one.

keeperofdakeys 15y ago

The original Asus Transformer sold with an unlocked boot loader, and many linux distros can be used on it. The question is, since the first device had an unlocked bootloader, is it a reasonable assumption that the new model would too? Since it is not just a new revision, I don't think so.

RexRollman 15y ago
I understand what you are saying but it is also reasonable to be pissed when the follow on model takes away an ability the previous one had.
jsnell 15y ago
They already switched to a locked bootloader in later revisions of the Transformer. It is a pain, since Android just doesn't work that well with this form factor, but the hardware can't be repurposed to run Ubuntu either.
jevinskie 15y ago
The original Transformer (TF101) has always had a locked bootloader. The key for the first revisions was leaked by someone inside Asus, allowing ROM flashing. Asus changed the key and now people with newer TF101s cannot flash their own ROMs.

raganwald 15y ago

Myth: Android puts users in control. Fact: Android puts manufacturers in control. Some manufacturers, of course, choose to allow users to exercise some control over their devices. But "Android" is no guarantee of this.

pyre 15y ago
Android doesn't put manufacturers in control. Manufacturers are inherently in control regardless of the OS. It's not like the iPhone/iPad takes control away from manufacturers because Apple is the only manufacturer, and they definitely have full control over iOS.
- recoiledsnake 15y ago
  Your point is negated by Windows Phone 7. Manufacturers and carriers do not have much control over it. All they get is a bigger tile for one program and all preloaded stuff is easily uninstallable with a long press. No always-running battery sucking services in the background are allowed by Microsoft and the phone has to pass strict battery and hardware tests performed by Microsoft before it can be released. So it is indeed accurate to state that Android puts manufacturers in control.
  - moe 15y ago
    All they get is a bigger tile for one program and all preloaded stuff is easily uninstallable with a long press. No always-running battery sucking services in the background are allowed by Microsoft and the phone has to pass strict battery and hardware tests performed by Microsoft before it can be released. This was new to me and sounds like an extra-ordinarily good idea. Seems at last here is one lesson that google should learn from Microsoft.
    - cooldeal 15y ago
      The OEMs get a special section of the Marketplace where they can have special apps for just their phones. For example, the HTC apps cannot be installed on Samsung phones. This is a much better way for the OEMs to differentiate and add value rather than put in uninstallable software.

lawnchair_larry 15y ago

More "RMS was right".

peterfschaadt 15y ago

Looks like they caved and will release a tool soon to unlock the bootloader. It will void the warranty and disable Google Market video rentals. http://www.bgr.com/2012/01/03/asus-confirms-intent-to-release-transformer-prime-bootloader-unlocking-tool/ http://www.bgr.com/2012/01/03/asus-confirms-intent-to-releas...

mattwdelong 15y ago

Just did some research, and I don't know about the validity of the statement [1], but it was said that Asus Taiwan [2] released a press statement, which said: > BOOTLOADER: they won't unlock the bootloader, and the purpose of locked bootloader is to support media renting service (due to DRM restrictions, and many entertainment industries requested it) on the device and its stability. BUT, they are working on releasing a bootloader unlocking tool for those users who would like to unlock it. however, the use of this unlocker tool will void the warranty immediately. Perhaps someone with Mandarin could visit the page and verify the statement? If that's the case, it's a perfectly reasonable response. [1] https://www.facebook.com/asus.n.america/posts/271258449600988 https://www.facebook.com/asus.n.america/posts/27125844960098... [2] https://www.facebook.com/asusclub.tw?sk=wall https://www.facebook.com/asusclub.tw?sk=wall

alexlitov 15y ago

Taken from their Facebook page: Regarding the bootloader, the reason we chose to lock it is due to content providers' requirement for DRM client devices to be as secure as possible. ASUS supports Google DRM in order to provide users with a high quality video rental experience. Also, based on our experience, users who choose to root their devices risk breaking the system completely. However, we know there is demand in the modding community to have an unlocked bootloader. Therefore, ASUS is developing an unlock tool for that community. Please do note that if you choose to unlock your device, the ASUS warranty will be void, and Google video rental will also be unavailable because the device will be no longer protected by security mechanism.

r00fus 15y ago
Why is it that a bootloader needs to be locked in order for rentals to be available? Hasn't iTunes movie rentals/purchases proven that a relatively open OS + DRM is adequate for content protection? It's shit like this combined with a distinct lack of upgrades from the Android manufacturers that keep me using an iPad or (far more open) laptop for my computing needs... for tablet computing, Apple will always have an advantage if things like CM9 aren't allowed, since Apple builds both iOS and the hardware.