5 ms·

> Tickets are nonrefundable because otherwise the network doesn't work, financially. This is 100% false. Southwest Airlines is one of the most profitable airli

> Tickets are nonrefundable because otherwise the network doesn't work, financially. This is 100% false. Southwest Airlines is one of the most profitable airlines in the US and their refund policy for refundable flights is a full refund up to 10 mins before the flight. For nonrefundable flights you get full credit if you cancel up to 10 mins before your flight, with no additional fees. During the pandemic, ALL airlines moved to full credit with no change fees if you cancelled your flight. Previously they would have absurd $200 change fees or loss of your flight. The idea that airlines can’t survive with flexible, consumer friendly policies is a lie. Things like the check in fees or fuel surcharge are pure profit.

xwdv 4y ago
The airlines were buoyed by PPP loans.
- Retric 4y ago
  Which didn’t even fully cover the dramatic drop in customers let alone these policy changes. What people forget is companies are in competition, if every airline is forced to refund ticks then the industry simply reaches a new equilibrium with very slightly higher ticket prices. However, if any airline defects to worse customer service they all end up doing the same. Thus the need for customer focused regulations.
- butlerm 4y ago
  Airlines did not qualify for PPP loans. They did receive substantial direct support from the federal government however. PPP "loans" were reserved for businesses with less than five hundred employees that weren't worth very much (relatively speaking) either.
  - xwdv 4y ago
    So even better than PPP loans??
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - butlerm 4y ago
      Probably. All told the government basically covered 18 months of airline payroll expenses but the airlines had to pay about 25% of that back. PPP "loans" were intended as payroll support for a shorter period with 100% forgiveness in most cases.
smcin 4y ago
No it's not 100% false, it's about 70% correct, refunds are in (expiring, non-transferable) flight credits not money-back. The preceding poster said "your money back" not "flight credits". Flight credits expire (with US carriers, typically in 12 months, sometimes within only 3 months (Spirit), with European carriers, sometimes up to 3 years), and cannot be transferred to any other passenger [0], unlike even airmiles; and using them with partner airlines can be restricted; many passengers are unaware of much of that and airlines do not point it out, and rely on the fact that passengers may not realize till the credit has expired. (In 7/2022, Southwest did uniquely eliminate expiration on flight credits unexpired from July 28, 2022 onward.) Just because an airline only initially offers (restricted, expiring) travel credits, doesn't mean much; in some cases [1] passengers may be entitled to an actual money-back refund: (a) canceled flight b) passenger has documented medical circumstance c) cancellations due to Covid d) possibly other circumstance). One excellent advocacy resource is [2] Elliott.org 12/2022: "The complete guide to using your airline flight credit now". EU regulations are more pro-passenger than USDOT. Southwest in 3/2022 unveiled its long-awaited new fare category "Wanna Get Away Plus" whose key perk is the ability to transfer flight credits, which Southwest calls travel funds (which sounds like intentionally misleading language, but anyway). But again, SW charge more for WGA+. > Southwest Airlines... refund policy for refundable flights is a full refund up to 10 mins before the flight. But that's the minority case: only Southwest's Anytime and higher fares are (money-back-)refundable, and they are typically way more expensive (2.5-4x) than non-refundable WGA fares. I can't find data but AFAIK most SW non-business passengers are WGA fares. So the statement: >> Tickets are nonrefundable because otherwise the network doesn't work, financially. is in the general case true. (One well-known travel hack with SWA for frequent travelers who didn't know their departure dates 3 weeks in advance used to be to buy 3+ different non-refundable tickets spaced out by say a week each, then refund whichever tickets you didn't end up needing. This was still cheaper than one Anytime fare.) [0]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2022/03/24/southwest-flights-new-fare-wanna-get-away-plus/7143951001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2022/03/2... [1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/advice/2020/10/09/flight-vouchers-yours-expiring-soon-what-to-do/5907794002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/advice/2020/10/09/flig... [2]: https://www.elliott.org/ultimate-consumer-guides-smart-travelers/the-complete-guide-to-using-your-airline-flight-credit-now/ https://www.elliott.org/ultimate-consumer-guides-smart-trave...

xwdv 4y ago

The airlines were buoyed by PPP loans.

Retric 4y ago
Which didn’t even fully cover the dramatic drop in customers let alone these policy changes. What people forget is companies are in competition, if every airline is forced to refund ticks then the industry simply reaches a new equilibrium with very slightly higher ticket prices. However, if any airline defects to worse customer service they all end up doing the same. Thus the need for customer focused regulations.
butlerm 4y ago
Airlines did not qualify for PPP loans. They did receive substantial direct support from the federal government however. PPP "loans" were reserved for businesses with less than five hundred employees that weren't worth very much (relatively speaking) either.
- xwdv 4y ago
  So even better than PPP loans??
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - butlerm 4y ago
    Probably. All told the government basically covered 18 months of airline payroll expenses but the airlines had to pay about 25% of that back. PPP "loans" were intended as payroll support for a shorter period with 100% forgiveness in most cases.

smcin 4y ago

No it's not 100% false, it's about 70% correct, refunds are in (expiring, non-transferable) flight credits not money-back. The preceding poster said "your money back" not "flight credits". Flight credits expire (with US carriers, typically in 12 months, sometimes within only 3 months (Spirit), with European carriers, sometimes up to 3 years), and cannot be transferred to any other passenger [0], unlike even airmiles; and using them with partner airlines can be restricted; many passengers are unaware of much of that and airlines do not point it out, and rely on the fact that passengers may not realize till the credit has expired. (In 7/2022, Southwest did uniquely eliminate expiration on flight credits unexpired from July 28, 2022 onward.) Just because an airline only initially offers (restricted, expiring) travel credits, doesn't mean much; in some cases [1] passengers may be entitled to an actual money-back refund: (a) canceled flight b) passenger has documented medical circumstance c) cancellations due to Covid d) possibly other circumstance). One excellent advocacy resource is [2] Elliott.org 12/2022: "The complete guide to using your airline flight credit now". EU regulations are more pro-passenger than USDOT. Southwest in 3/2022 unveiled its long-awaited new fare category "Wanna Get Away Plus" whose key perk is the ability to transfer flight credits, which Southwest calls travel funds (which sounds like intentionally misleading language, but anyway). But again, SW charge more for WGA+. > Southwest Airlines... refund policy for refundable flights is a full refund up to 10 mins before the flight. But that's the minority case: only Southwest's Anytime and higher fares are (money-back-)refundable, and they are typically way more expensive (2.5-4x) than non-refundable WGA fares. I can't find data but AFAIK most SW non-business passengers are WGA fares. So the statement: >> Tickets are nonrefundable because otherwise the network doesn't work, financially. is in the general case true. (One well-known travel hack with SWA for frequent travelers who didn't know their departure dates 3 weeks in advance used to be to buy 3+ different non-refundable tickets spaced out by say a week each, then refund whichever tickets you didn't end up needing. This was still cheaper than one Anytime fare.) [0]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2022/03/24/southwest-flights-new-fare-wanna-get-away-plus/7143951001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2022/03/2... [1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/advice/2020/10/09/flight-vouchers-yours-expiring-soon-what-to-do/5907794002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/advice/2020/10/09/flig... [2]: https://www.elliott.org/ultimate-consumer-guides-smart-travelers/the-complete-guide-to-using-your-airline-flight-credit-now/ https://www.elliott.org/ultimate-consumer-guides-smart-trave...