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Upton Sinclair disrupted and documented his era (2015)
- WalterBright 4y ago"bury capitalism under a barrage of facts" By writing novels. The "reality" of a novel adjusts the facts to fit the narrative. A factual narrative would not be a novel and would cite sources.
- blast 4y agoThere's more than one way to communicate truth.
- WalterBright 4y agoBy writing a novel, there's no way to determine what the truth was, and no way to challenge it. This is why historians do not write novels.
- blast 4y agoHistorians and novelists take different approaches to the truth.
- WalterBright 4y agoI prefer historians' books.
- maxbond 4y agoI've heard you say this a few times, sometimes explicitly saying that one can't learn truth from novels. Other people have different preferences and different ways of knowing; some people find novels help them sympathize with people in a certain conditions by vividly imagining their situation, or to discuss truths from epistemologies that are not strictly rational or factual (like emotional truths or subjective truths). Surely you're able to entertain that notion, without the expectation of adopting it in your own life, and let other people pursue their epistemologies without devaluing them? > By writing a novel, there's no way to determine what the truth was, and no way to challenge it. What I think the truth of the matter is here, is that you do not personally know how to challenge it and how to divine truth from it (or that these aren't skills as well developed as other kinds of analysis you prefer to engage in - your preferences being entirely legitimate, and meaning no slight against the skillset you've chosen to cultivate). You can interpret and analyze fiction and compare it to your experience. There's a whole field of literary analysis. You can challenge historical fiction through historical scholarship. There are actually innumerable approaches here. I think part of what you mean is there's no objective way, and that reasonable people will come to different conclusions about what a novel means. I can see how you might interpret that as a problem; but other people see that as a strength, that by providing different value to different people, it's providing more value overall.
- WalterBright 4y ago> let other people pursue their epistemologies without devaluing them? I object to people citing fictions as fact. I've enjoyed reading historical novels, and enjoy watching historical movies. But when I know something about the history behind them, it's often clear that the facts are distorted, sometimes egregiously, to suit the creator's agenda or to make it more entertaining. > you do not personally know how to challenge it and how to divine truth from it That's rather presumptious, don't you think?
- maxbond 4y ago> I object to people citing fictions as fact. I would too, I don't see anyone defending the quote you highlighted though. (Though perhaps they'll show up in time, hadn't been very long). It's no more presumptuous than saying novels can't be learned from. It was meant in good faith; take as much or as little from it as you care to, and if it bothered you, I apologize.
- andrepd 4y agoThis particular work has ample contemporary accounts that corroborate its accuracy. I seriously don't get your reasoning, "some books bad => all books bad"? There are shitty occultist fiction novels in my local bookstore, ergo any historical fiction books are distorted trash? I don't get it.
- WalterBright 4y ago> This particular work has ample contemporary accounts that corroborate its accuracy. It does? There seems to be only one, which I've posted twice now, and is an easy read. Cite that one. > "some books bad => all books bad" My actual words were fictions are not citeable as historical fact.
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- WalterBright 4y agoI have an exercise for you you may enjoy. Watch the hollywood version of "Memphis Belle". Then watch the documentary "Memphis Belle" which was filmed by cameramen going on actual B-17 missions and getting shot at. All the footage is real, there are no actors. You can see the fear in their faces, the bravery, the hurt, the relief when they return. It's all terribly real. My dad few 32 missions in B-17. He said the documentary nailed what it was actually like. The hollywood version, nope.
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- Klinky 4y agoWell the depiction of the conditions within meat packing plants in The Jungle were pretty historically accurate. It's certainly worth researching the impact it had. Comparatively & to your point, something like Atlas Shrugged is pretty much pure fantasy. So sure novels may not be the most concise vehicles for historical fact, but it really depends on the aims of the author.
- WalterBright 4y ago> were pretty historically accurate. I've yet to find any historian's account that verifies any of it. > Atlas Shrugged I've never read it, and never refer to it. > it really depends on the aims of the author Sinclair beats one over the head with his agenda. Do you think that might color his version of the "truth"?
- defrost 4y agoHistorians account? Surely the contemporous Neill-Reynolds report of 1906, commissioned by President Theodore Roosevelt, confirmed Uptons depictions and resulted in the Federal Meat Inspection Act of 1906. But hey, I'm just an Australian and you clearly know better.
- WalterBright 4y agoHere you go: https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1906/06/05/101843502.pdf https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1906/06/05/101... If you want to cite the report, that's great. Citing a novel with no references, nope. People can be educated just fine using facts instead of novels. Rarely noted is TR commissioned two reports, because he didn't like the first one. The NR report was the second. I've never been able to find what the first one said.
- niea_11 4y ago>Rarely noted is TR commissioned two reports Do you have the names of the authors of the first one? A lazy google search didn't mention the commission of two reports
- Aunche 4y agoZinn's quote is ridiculous, but this is rather unfair to Sinclair. He did interview a lot of meatpacking workers and visited their facilities before writing The Jungle. It was so influential that the FDA was passed in less than a year after it was serialized in the newspaper. Keep in mind that Sinclair lived in time when information traveled slowly, so employing sensationalism to raise awareness was a good thing. However, nowadays, raising awareness is the only thing that anyone seems to be capable of doing these days in politics. The passage of the Food and Drug Act would be completely unthinkable today by our current do-nothing Congress. Both sides of the political spectrum have expressed interest doing something to regulate social media, and they've wasted multiple hearings with the CEOs of tech giants to collect juicy sound bites. I think part of it is that in history class, we learn about Sinclair, Rosa Parks, and MLK, and how they lead to all these great reforms, but meanwhile the lobbyists and Congressman busy pushing legislation through. As a result, we elect politicians that larp as activists than actually write policy.
- WalterBright 4y ago> He did interview a lot of meatpacking workers and visited their facilities before writing The Jungle So he says. Has anyone verified what he wrote?
- DoktorDelta 4y agoYes, Charles P. Neill was sent to investigate meat packing plants in response. https://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers.org/?a=d&d=WWW19060615-01.2.9&e=-------en-20--1--img-txIN%7ctxCO%7ctxTA--------0------ https://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers.org/?a=d&d=WWW1906061...
- WalterBright 4y agoI cited the actual report, not a description of it, in this thread. You're welcome!
- starkd 4y agoUpton Sinclair's life is also an example of activist politics striving for things everyone can agree on. Notice how he never got into social engineering programs that tried to reinvent humanity. The horrors he painted of the meatpacking industry were universally appalling. They just needed someone to expose it.
- scandox 4y agoIt is perfectly possible to construct a false narrative with true facts and to tell a true story which is entirely fictional.
- d23 4y agoHow did I know someone would be in the comments defending eating children that had fallen into factory vats?
- officialchicken 4y agoThank you Upton for the FDA. Your exposes helped clean up our food supply and empowered the workers rights movement. "Mary had a little lamb and when she saw it sicken she sent it off to packingtown and now it's labeled chicken."