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If a business is pushing for tips (those dumbass Toast POS consoles that now often start tipping at 20%), the workers are underpaid. Tipping is getting out of c

If a business is pushing for tips (those dumbass Toast POS consoles that now often start tipping at 20%), the workers are underpaid. Tipping is getting out of control, and businesses just need to pay more. Tipping is a stupid concept. Japan has the number three economy in the world and they'll refuse tips. Watch https://youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE https://youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE and tell me that he's wrong.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lotsofpulp 4y ago
So if my law firm sent an invoice that had a tip line on it, that would indicate the lawyers are underpaid? I am going to need a better definition of overpaid and underpaid, and the Reservoir Dogs quip about women only being able to be economically independent due to tips is also going to need a source.
- stemlord 4y ago
  >lawyers >civil engineers How do you find it a reasonable argument to compare upper-end office workers to service industry employees? Are you saying lawyers and engineers are paying their mortgages with tips?
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    No, I was responding to the logic (which I think is erroneous) of: > If a business is pushing for tips (those dumbass Toast POS consoles that now often start tipping at 20%), the workers are underpaid. If the argument is “if workers are paying for their mortgage with tips, then they are underpaid”, then I would respond that analyzing each individual’s cost structure to determine how much you should pay them is, at the least, very inefficient.
    - pyth0 4y ago
      I think the much more obvious point was that you generally only tip (and therefore would see a tip popup on the POS) at places where the tips really are an important part of their take home. I don't think that line of thinking is erroneous. Where I'm located in one of the provinces, until only recently places could pay subminimum wage to service staff under the assumption that it was covered by tips.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        I dont know about Canada, but here in the US people often misrepresent these provisions. i.e "places could pay subminimum wage to service staff under the assumption that it was covered by tips" in the US a place can pay submimimum wages provided the over all gross pay IS MORE than the minimum. Not the "assuming it will be" it has to actually be counted, and be paid more than. If not the business has to make up the difference This is done (in part) to incentive the business to ensure their workers are reporting their tipped income, it is not uncommon for people to try to evade taxation by not reporting tipped income
glandium 4y ago
There are people trying to introduce tipping in Japan. https://tip-culture.com/ https://tip-culture.com/ I hope they fail.
- brezelgoring 4y ago
  You and me both, fellow. Exploring a bit into how it might fail: AFAIK Japanese people shun tips because it is seen as an unwelcome incentive to do better, and they take pride in doing their best wherever. Tipping, thus, is akin to saying "This should motivate you to do better next time" - basically an insult. This is said in the site you linked to as well, it quotes a testimonial from an employee that didn't quit an oppressive job she had because a customer complimented her work. Not because of a silent tip and a nod. An app that intends to 'remove friction in tipping' and 'motivate employees with tips', goes against Japanese cultural values very hard. The workers are (allegedly) not motivated by tips and tipping doesn't have a friction problem unless you're the owner/manager trying to get in on it. Additionally, this is something the workers have no input on, it is a terminal on a table whose sole purpose is to add tips to the service. No employer would ever allow its workers to do this just because, let alone pay a company for this service. There has to be a split of some sorts embedded into the game, which leads me to think this will motivate only prospective employers looking to get a cut on the tip income. According to the site, the terminal only asks if you want to tip and the customer says yes or no, with a tick note appearing in the terminal if the customer says yes. This could help cover tip stealing. How would you ever know your tips were stolen if you didn't even know you were tipped in the first place? So not only are they importing the tip system from the United States, but also the adversarial relationship between hosts and owner/managers that encourages tip stealing, and a form of tip stealing that the workers can't stop because it's in an app controlled by the owner/manager, not a jar tallied at the end of the day by the same workers that filled it. Maybe I'm reading too deep into it, I tend to do that sometimes.
osigurdson 4y ago
I really dislike tipping. I can’t remember the last time that service was so amazing that a tip was required. Of course, I’m not sure I would be happier if the bill was the same with the tip component removed. I suppose it does give the consumer some leverage if the service was horrible. I think I’ve just convinced myself that tips are ok.
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  Those who are punished by not tipping are unlikely to be the exclusive cause for poor service.
  - osigurdson 4y ago
    Sure, but they may make some noise which could lead to better service next time (i.e. a feedback loop). Otherwise, only the consumer is punished and it is less likely that things will improve.
    - Waterluvian 4y ago
      And then we’re right back to the crux of this article: pitting employees and customers against each other. So now our mechanism is to punish employees in hope that it forces improvement from the company?
baron816 4y ago
> the workers are underpaid What's your definition of "underpaid"? What does anyone deserve to get paid? It's really really difficult to create some sort of moral framework around the jobs people do and the rewards they get for doing them (does a plumber deserve to get paid more than a dental hygienist?). Capitalism is efficient because it doesn't try to. It just rewards people for supplying the things others want. "Underpaid"/"overpaid" would have to be relative to what markets pay. But if all servers receive tips, that's just what the market is doing. More simply, you wouldn't argue that janitors are correctly paid, just because they don't receive tips. They just don't have the surface to collect them.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

lotsofpulp 4y ago

So if my law firm sent an invoice that had a tip line on it, that would indicate the lawyers are underpaid? I am going to need a better definition of overpaid and underpaid, and the Reservoir Dogs quip about women only being able to be economically independent due to tips is also going to need a source.

stemlord 4y ago
>lawyers >civil engineers How do you find it a reasonable argument to compare upper-end office workers to service industry employees? Are you saying lawyers and engineers are paying their mortgages with tips?
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  No, I was responding to the logic (which I think is erroneous) of: > If a business is pushing for tips (those dumbass Toast POS consoles that now often start tipping at 20%), the workers are underpaid. If the argument is “if workers are paying for their mortgage with tips, then they are underpaid”, then I would respond that analyzing each individual’s cost structure to determine how much you should pay them is, at the least, very inefficient.
  - pyth0 4y ago
    I think the much more obvious point was that you generally only tip (and therefore would see a tip popup on the POS) at places where the tips really are an important part of their take home. I don't think that line of thinking is erroneous. Where I'm located in one of the provinces, until only recently places could pay subminimum wage to service staff under the assumption that it was covered by tips.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      I dont know about Canada, but here in the US people often misrepresent these provisions. i.e "places could pay subminimum wage to service staff under the assumption that it was covered by tips" in the US a place can pay submimimum wages provided the over all gross pay IS MORE than the minimum. Not the "assuming it will be" it has to actually be counted, and be paid more than. If not the business has to make up the difference This is done (in part) to incentive the business to ensure their workers are reporting their tipped income, it is not uncommon for people to try to evade taxation by not reporting tipped income

glandium 4y ago

There are people trying to introduce tipping in Japan. https://tip-culture.com/ https://tip-culture.com/ I hope they fail.

brezelgoring 4y ago
You and me both, fellow. Exploring a bit into how it might fail: AFAIK Japanese people shun tips because it is seen as an unwelcome incentive to do better, and they take pride in doing their best wherever. Tipping, thus, is akin to saying "This should motivate you to do better next time" - basically an insult. This is said in the site you linked to as well, it quotes a testimonial from an employee that didn't quit an oppressive job she had because a customer complimented her work. Not because of a silent tip and a nod. An app that intends to 'remove friction in tipping' and 'motivate employees with tips', goes against Japanese cultural values very hard. The workers are (allegedly) not motivated by tips and tipping doesn't have a friction problem unless you're the owner/manager trying to get in on it. Additionally, this is something the workers have no input on, it is a terminal on a table whose sole purpose is to add tips to the service. No employer would ever allow its workers to do this just because, let alone pay a company for this service. There has to be a split of some sorts embedded into the game, which leads me to think this will motivate only prospective employers looking to get a cut on the tip income. According to the site, the terminal only asks if you want to tip and the customer says yes or no, with a tick note appearing in the terminal if the customer says yes. This could help cover tip stealing. How would you ever know your tips were stolen if you didn't even know you were tipped in the first place? So not only are they importing the tip system from the United States, but also the adversarial relationship between hosts and owner/managers that encourages tip stealing, and a form of tip stealing that the workers can't stop because it's in an app controlled by the owner/manager, not a jar tallied at the end of the day by the same workers that filled it. Maybe I'm reading too deep into it, I tend to do that sometimes.

osigurdson 4y ago

I really dislike tipping. I can’t remember the last time that service was so amazing that a tip was required. Of course, I’m not sure I would be happier if the bill was the same with the tip component removed. I suppose it does give the consumer some leverage if the service was horrible. I think I’ve just convinced myself that tips are ok.

Waterluvian 4y ago
Those who are punished by not tipping are unlikely to be the exclusive cause for poor service.
- osigurdson 4y ago
  Sure, but they may make some noise which could lead to better service next time (i.e. a feedback loop). Otherwise, only the consumer is punished and it is less likely that things will improve.
  - Waterluvian 4y ago
    And then we’re right back to the crux of this article: pitting employees and customers against each other. So now our mechanism is to punish employees in hope that it forces improvement from the company?

baron816 4y ago

> the workers are underpaid What's your definition of "underpaid"? What does anyone deserve to get paid? It's really really difficult to create some sort of moral framework around the jobs people do and the rewards they get for doing them (does a plumber deserve to get paid more than a dental hygienist?). Capitalism is efficient because it doesn't try to. It just rewards people for supplying the things others want. "Underpaid"/"overpaid" would have to be relative to what markets pay. But if all servers receive tips, that's just what the market is doing. More simply, you wouldn't argue that janitors are correctly paid, just because they don't receive tips. They just don't have the surface to collect them.