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The problem here is that workers now want to be "paid properly" (what ever that means) and still get tips. There have been restaurants have tried non-tipping m
by phpisthebest 4y ago
The problem here is that workers now want to be "paid properly" (what ever that means) and still get tips.
There have been restaurants have tried non-tipping models, consumers and staff both hate it. First the highly productive staff often make less under that model (where poor performers make more), consumers hate it because the menu prices increase, and you end up with McD's level customer service where drinks are never refilled, and service overall degrades.
- jmugan 4y agoI don't know, I've had pretty bad service recently at places where you tip. I still top 20% out of guilt, but it might be that service in general is poorer now.
- gearsandbeers 4y agoWhen did tipping 20% become standard in the US? I was talking to a colleague about this recently and they mentioned it but I could’ve sworn it used to be 15%
- mattnewton 4y agoI don’t think it is just you- ten years ago I distinctly remember somewhere where the brand new POS tip screens used to have 10, 15 and 20 percent tip buttons; now I frequently see 15 20 25 or 20 25 30 as defaults on those screens when going out.
- rx_bandit 4y agoIt's true! I remember before we use to just double the tax and that was the tip. (When it used to be 7.25% in California) Nowadays we're taking a second and thinking before eating out.
- jcranmer 4y agoI want to say around-ish a decade ago? It definitely used to be 15% when I was growing up. Although based on some recent news articles I found when I tried searching for a more definitive source, tip amounts have gone down in the past year or so.
- jghn 4y agoIn more cosmopolitan areas it's been normal for a while now. I remember 18 & even 20% being discussed over 10 years ago. And these days starting to see 25% pop up in conversations.
- barbariangrunge 4y agoIt actually used to be 10%. It’s crept upwards for years
- gearsandbeers 4y agoI do wonder why it’s creeping upward though given it’s proportional and would increase as prices increase - perhaps it’s a symptom of employers paying even less after controlling for inflation etc. when comparing then vs now
- lotsofpulp 4y agoI assume it is at least partly a status symbol thing when going out as a group to eat, especially amongst young people.
- dpkirchner 4y agoThe minimum wage (roughly what tipped workers earn) has been falling for decades, so I think at least some of the upward creep can be attributed to the knowledge that the workers are getting screwed, hard.
- anigbrowl 4y agoDuring the pandemic. 15% used to be the norm, then people (including me) started paying a bit more to help out restaurant workers who were dealing with a sudden precipitous drop in business. I'm about over it though.
- phpisthebest 4y ago>>I still top 20% out of guilt hmmmm >>but it might be that service in general is poorer now. I wonder why that might be? You have allowed emotion to screw the system. the entire purpose off a tip is pay for the service. no serivce no tip. People work of incentives, if they know they will get 20% no matter what why would or should they give you good service? you set the expectation, and now complain that people have given you exactly what you expected of them
- woodruffw 4y ago> The problem here is that workers now want to be "paid properly" (what ever that means) and still get tips. One sensible metric is that you should be able to support yourself while living in the area you work (or an area nearby such that it isn't a significant financial hardship or timesink to commute to work). Service jobs largely fail on that metric, effectively using government money and family support structures to cover the gap.
- CamperBob2 4y agoSo, nice areas shouldn't have restaurants? Paying waiters and busboys enough money to live in downtown SF while their counterparts in the suburbs are paid what they're getting now will distort the labor market in ways that break the whole thing.
- woodruffw 4y ago> So, nice areas shouldn't have restaurants? I don't know how you got to that, other than by assuming that nice areas have to be expensive. The fact that SF is unable to achieve both is an indicator of broken local markets and politics, not an ironclad rule for every other locality. Edit: Another framing is that "nice" and "fancy" are different things, as much as extremely unequal markets like SF distort the distinction.
- jen20 4y ago> other than by assuming that nice areas have to be expensive This is generally the case. I can’t think of a single counter example.
- woodruffw 4y agoWhat's your qualification for "nice"? For me, it's decent public infrastructure, convenient access to both basic goods (groceries) and "light" luxuries (restaurants, bars), and a broad lack of concern that I'm going to be victimized by a crime. Most of the US satisfies these constraints, especially if you own and don't mind driving a car.
- tbalsam 4y agoI've heard these as talking points, often in a political context, but the opposite has been true in my experience. The places that have removed tips seem to be much happier on the whole. I think as well something that would be concerning regarding the quality of service of the places that you're talking about that the quality of service depends upon how much money is being given, and less things that oftentimes help people perform on the job better (non-toxic environment, healthy egoless leadership, good colleagues, good company ethos and ethics, etc). Obviously pay is important, it's a job after all, but people can't magic the willpower to perform well for money out of nowhere. I think that's up to the company to protect and foster that kind of a productive workplace where people can achieve their potential.
- stemlord 4y ago>There have been restaurants have tried non-tipping models, You mean like most restaurants in europe? Yes the service there is on average worse than in American restaurants because of tips, but in my opinion not by enough of a margin to cost me 20% every time. The times that you would tip at a eu restaurant, its something reasonable well below the ridiculous 20% average that American businesses have swindled into existence (because a tip is supposed to be extra, not the employee's actual means to paying rent)
- phpisthebest 4y agoEurope has a completely different cultural model. One of the most important services the waitstaff provides (for me anyway) is ensuring my beverages are refilled. This concept does not exist really where as they pay for every refill. This also changes the business dynamics as the Restaurant wants the waitstaff to "always be selling" to increase ticket revenue. The US has a less hard sell model and free refills. That changes alot of the dynamics
- anigbrowl 4y agoThis is only true for people who don't drink alcohol with their meal.
- phpisthebest 4y agoGiven I stopped drinking over 20 years ago it is true for me. Also if you are drinking alcohol (and only Alcohol) with EVERY meal, well you may have a problem
- anigbrowl 4y agoMost people don't have every meal in a restaurant.
- ikr678 4y agoThe definition of 'good' and 'bad' table service is also very cultural. I am from a non-tipping country and I find American style table waiting very overbearing, bottomless refills are not a thing here (except table water). I dont want to make small talk with the waiter, I'm there to eat with my party.
- insane_dreamer 4y agoStrong disagree. You can still tip at restaurants where the service is already added to the bill automatically (so you go in knowing the meal will cost 20% more than what the listed prices are, just like you know that when something says $199 it's actually $210 once you add sales tax). You can always also tip in appreciation for the service (so high performers can get more) but you're not feeling like you're forced to tip just to bring workers' wages up to the minimum level.
- phpisthebest 4y ago>>you can still tip at restaurants where the service is already added to the bill automatically (so you go in knowing the meal will cost 20% more than what the listed prices are They better just raise the menu price, any place that has a 20% service charge added automatically (outside the standard large party ) will never get my patronage again >> once you add sales tax that is nothing like Sales Tax. Sales tax is a fee the government is charging ME that the business is mandated by the government to collect on my behalf, I owe the tax not the business. People often do not understand that context. Just like when your employer taxes out of your paycheck, you owe the income tax but the employer is mandated to collect it because the government do not trust you with your own money.
- lp4vn 4y agoThe tipping the way it's done in America only exists in America, in the rest of the world it's not like that and consumers and staff are ok with that. Also your idea that tip creates a micro free market where highly effective staff makes a lot of money and poor performers are penalized is politically motivated, someone had to tell you this.
- bluedino 4y ago> There have been restaurants have tried non-tipping models, consumers and staff both hate it. First the highly productive staff often make less under that model (where poor performers make more) Similar to the argument against unions.
- dboreham 4y agoThere are whole countries that don't have tipping yet somehow seem to manage to serve food.
- anigbrowl 4y agoconsumers hate it because the menu prices increase, and you end up with McD's level customer service where drinks are never refilled, and service overall degrades I have one such restaurant near me and I neither hate it nor experience bad service. It's been like this a few years and they're doing fine.
- bamboozled 4y agoI hate tipping and the idea of it and now it’s automated with all these payment apps, ie it suggests a figure, is even more stupid. Like the worst service ever and they suggest you pay 15%” so you feel obliged because the poor kid gets paid nothing anyway. I’ve travelled all over the world and I don’t find the service in America to be that much better honestly.
- phpisthebest 4y ago>>so you feel obliged I have no problems looking them in the eye and pressing 0% -- No Tip.
- caconym_ 4y ago> There have been restaurants have tried non-tipping models, consumers and staff both hate it. Citation needed. My experiences at no-tipping restaurants have been the absolute opposite of your claims: great food, great service, and no fucking around with tipping afterwards.
- askvictor 4y agoAustralia doesn't have a tipping culture (though it's slowly creeping in). Customer service is usually pretty good. Sometimes great (in which case I usually do leave a tip). If the service is really bad, then you can always tell the management; they're usually pretty obliging. If I'm at a restaurant, I really don't want to have much interaction with most of the staff; I'm there to talk to my dining party and to eat and drink. _Really_ good wait staff know this and are attentive (e.g. to your drinks, or can notice when you need them), personable when they're there, but otherwise you don't notice them. I think tipping culture discourages this, as being invisible isn't an obvious way to get a tip.
- fipar 4y ago> First the highly productive staff often make less under that model (where poor performers make more) I just wanted to share the fact that there are places where tips are shared by the whole staff, and that system works well (I can't say if it works worse or better than the one you're describing as I don't have much experience with it). It also has the advantage that non-public-facing staff (e.g., cooks) get their share of tips too.