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> It could be that some pedophiles refrain from molesting children because some internal moral standard tells them it would hurt the child, but it seems more li

> It could be that some pedophiles refrain from molesting children because some internal moral standard tells them it would hurt the child, but it seems more likely that they only refrain when and where they could get into trouble for it. By that logic, the majority of heterosexual men only refrain from rape because they could get in trouble for it?

coldtea 4y ago
Rape is more about desire for control and power over the other, not about sensuality and sexuality. So no. Mere sexual desire is not enough. A sizable chunk of heterosexual men (and possibly women), on the other hand, would indeed have sex with available women at every opportunity, if they could not get in trouble for it - you know, like the stigma of adultery, divorces, and stuff.
noduerme 4y ago
I wrote: >> some pedophiles refrain from [...] So no, not the majority of men, just the majority of rapists (or potential rapists) would rape if they could. According to the survey, interest in "violating another's consent" sits at around 17%. The majority of men don't have to "refrain" from pedophilia, because the majority aren't sexually interested in children. Similarly, the majority of men aren't interested in raping people.
- nhchris 4y ago
  > the majority of men aren't interested in raping people. I'm confused. You're saying they are interested in sex, but not in rape, with their object of attraction. Okay. So does the same apply to pedophiles? Is the majority of pedophiles also not interested in raping anyone?
  - coldtea 4y ago
    In pedophiles the "object of attraction" can't ever consent, so merely wanting to have sex with it is already giving in to thoughts of non-consentual sex. Whereas heterosexual men can be interested in sex with women but not in rape (and most are). To map it out: heterosexual men: (a) interested (or acting) on consentual sex with adult women: fine (b) interested (or acting) non-consentual sex with adult women: bad pedos: (a) interested (or acting) non-consentual sex with children: bad It's not symmetrical, as there's no (b) option in the second case. Pedophilia is always about non-consentual sex (that is rape), whether acted upon or not. (In heterosexual men rape is mostly about power. In pedos, it can be about both power and desire, but that desire is still by definition a rape desire, as it can't ever be consentual).
    - nhchris 4y ago
      You seem to be confusing desire with what is attainable. If a man can't find a woman that would consent, does that mean he now desires rape, when before he didn't?
      - coldtea 4y ago
        I'm saying the opposite: in the case of children, it's not about "attainable" vs "non attainable", as there's no sense of a "consenting child". The mere pedo desire is desire for a subject unable to consent, that is pretty much equivalent to a rape desire.
        nicoburns 4y ago
        One can desire something thats not possible. As an analogy, one might desire to be able to jump of a mountain and glide gently to the ground (without any equipment): that doesn’t imply that someone who desires this wishes to die just because humans can’t fly and attempting to fly would be fatal. They desire that not to be the case (even though it is).
  - noduerme 4y ago
    That's a fine point. I guess I presuppose that a sexual interest in children includes an interest in violating another human's sovereignty. (Thus, all pedophilia is to the X-axis right of "violating consent" on the taboo scale on the chart... because it includes violating someone's consent and goes further than that in violating someone who can't consent). But I mean, the mundane fact of wanting to have sex with someone you can't have sex with (for any number of reasons) doesn't mean you're going to rape them. Or woild ever want to rape them. Why? Because you want to have sex with them under the condition that they want to have sex with you. Consensual sex is the kind of sex you crave and want to have. Sex is, obviously, different and better if both parties consent to it, to you, because you're not a rapist. So my contention is that potential rapists are the subset of men who aren't concerned with consent (not those who just desire someone they can't have). And pedophiles are a subset of that. In other words, you're assuming that attraction means someone would rape; I'm saying that an abnormal and antisocial impulse to violate someone's rights is a prerequisite for most rape, not simply attraction.

coldtea 4y ago

Rape is more about desire for control and power over the other, not about sensuality and sexuality. So no. Mere sexual desire is not enough. A sizable chunk of heterosexual men (and possibly women), on the other hand, would indeed have sex with available women at every opportunity, if they could not get in trouble for it - you know, like the stigma of adultery, divorces, and stuff.

noduerme 4y ago

I wrote: >> some pedophiles refrain from [...] So no, not the majority of men, just the majority of rapists (or potential rapists) would rape if they could. According to the survey, interest in "violating another's consent" sits at around 17%. The majority of men don't have to "refrain" from pedophilia, because the majority aren't sexually interested in children. Similarly, the majority of men aren't interested in raping people.

nhchris 4y ago
> the majority of men aren't interested in raping people. I'm confused. You're saying they are interested in sex, but not in rape, with their object of attraction. Okay. So does the same apply to pedophiles? Is the majority of pedophiles also not interested in raping anyone?
- coldtea 4y ago
  In pedophiles the "object of attraction" can't ever consent, so merely wanting to have sex with it is already giving in to thoughts of non-consentual sex. Whereas heterosexual men can be interested in sex with women but not in rape (and most are). To map it out: heterosexual men: (a) interested (or acting) on consentual sex with adult women: fine (b) interested (or acting) non-consentual sex with adult women: bad pedos: (a) interested (or acting) non-consentual sex with children: bad It's not symmetrical, as there's no (b) option in the second case. Pedophilia is always about non-consentual sex (that is rape), whether acted upon or not. (In heterosexual men rape is mostly about power. In pedos, it can be about both power and desire, but that desire is still by definition a rape desire, as it can't ever be consentual).
  - nhchris 4y ago
    You seem to be confusing desire with what is attainable. If a man can't find a woman that would consent, does that mean he now desires rape, when before he didn't?
    - coldtea 4y ago
      I'm saying the opposite: in the case of children, it's not about "attainable" vs "non attainable", as there's no sense of a "consenting child". The mere pedo desire is desire for a subject unable to consent, that is pretty much equivalent to a rape desire.
      - nicoburns 4y ago
        One can desire something thats not possible. As an analogy, one might desire to be able to jump of a mountain and glide gently to the ground (without any equipment): that doesn’t imply that someone who desires this wishes to die just because humans can’t fly and attempting to fly would be fatal. They desire that not to be the case (even though it is).
- noduerme 4y ago
  That's a fine point. I guess I presuppose that a sexual interest in children includes an interest in violating another human's sovereignty. (Thus, all pedophilia is to the X-axis right of "violating consent" on the taboo scale on the chart... because it includes violating someone's consent and goes further than that in violating someone who can't consent). But I mean, the mundane fact of wanting to have sex with someone you can't have sex with (for any number of reasons) doesn't mean you're going to rape them. Or woild ever want to rape them. Why? Because you want to have sex with them under the condition that they want to have sex with you. Consensual sex is the kind of sex you crave and want to have. Sex is, obviously, different and better if both parties consent to it, to you, because you're not a rapist. So my contention is that potential rapists are the subset of men who aren't concerned with consent (not those who just desire someone they can't have). And pedophiles are a subset of that. In other words, you're assuming that attraction means someone would rape; I'm saying that an abnormal and antisocial impulse to violate someone's rights is a prerequisite for most rape, not simply attraction.