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"And stuff like pushing for EVs before infrastructure is there, all while planes are fine and dandy to run on fucking leaded fuel..." You have to start somewhe

"And stuff like pushing for EVs before infrastructure is there, all while planes are fine and dandy to run on fucking leaded fuel..." You have to start somewhere and go step by step, if you want to solve huge problems. Who would pay for an infrastructure for EVs, when there are no EVs around? Chicken and egg problem. There is many crazy shit the EU has done, like the famous regulation on how cucumbers are supposed to bend exactly, which they abolished by now, but still once a month, the whole parliament and stuff moves from Strasbourg to Bruessel - and back, because they cannot settle one one place to be, but the slight push for renewable energy would not be on my list of big faults, even if it is inconsistent.

ilyt 4y ago
Putting money in infrastructure so customer sees it's cheaper to use EVs and just buys it is fine, but ban on ICE car sales is not "slight push".
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  Given the size of the problem climate change, it is a slight push, especially since the sales ban is supposed to start in 2035.
thaumasiotes 4y ago
> Who would pay for an infrastructure for EVs, when there are no EVs around? The owners, obviously. You think we installed gas stations before we had cars?
- noirbot 4y ago
  But an ICE car is an obvious improvement in both cost and usability to a horse-drawn carriage. Half of the value of an EV is that it's cheaper and easier to refuel. Making everyone who'd want one pay thousands to install infrastructure for them removes a lot of the reason you'd ever buy one, since it's otherwise essentially the same as an ICE car in terms of usage. If anything, right now, an EV is literally a worse car to an equivalent ICE in terms of what it's capable of. The reasons you'd have one is either general environmental altruism or because it'll be cheaper over the long term to own one.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Back when horse drawn carriages were the most common, EVs looked better than ICEs. We had to find the petroleum reserves before diesel and petrol could get cheap enough for ICEs to fully dominate over that era's EVs.
    - noirbot 4y ago
      Sure, but that's not really relevant to the point I'm trying to make. People moved away from animal-based travel to cars because cars had distinct improvements in usability and upkeep cost. It was ok to have the infrastructure come later because they were still an obvious improvement even without the infrastructure being in place yet. Right now, if I want an EV, I'm paying 20% more money to buy it, it's got a shorter range than my ICE for the same size car, and the infrastructure to do things like long trips with multiple recharges isn't there yet.
- ilammy 4y ago
  Okay, I'm interested, how did one get car fuel back then? Did people have to send one of their servants to a chemist for a mixture?
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filling_station#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filling_station#United_States : > The first "drive-in" filling station, Gulf Refining Company, opened to the motoring public in Pittsburgh on December 1, 1913, at Baum Boulevard and St Clair's Street. Prior to this, automobile drivers pulled into almost any general or hardware store, or even blacksmith shops in order to fill up their tanks.
- loa_in_ 4y ago
  No, but only because gas station idea (drive through automated fuel retail) wasn't a thing. However a human with a fuel reserve that could top you up was a thing before cars (a fuel retail). Before the dawn of the automobiles people were replacing steam engines with gas and liquid powered engines.
Kurtz79 4y ago
Here it is the USDA regulations on how cucumbers are supposed to bend and how to grade them: https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/cucumber-grades-and-standards https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/cucumber-grades-an... Damn that US government overreaching, telling cucumbers how much should they bend! ...or maybe that regulation is there for a reason (most times to protect consumers)?
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  "or maybe that regulation is there for a reason (most times to protect consumers)" Erm, can you tell me in what way a cucumber is dangerous to consumers, if its shape is bend a little bit more or less, so they need to be protected of that threat?
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    I'm looking at the USDA regulations and they seem reasonable to me. Looks like they're protecting consumers from being sold garbage labeled "cucumbers" instead of cucumbers labeled "cucumbers".
    - hutzlibu 4y ago
      "The maximum diameter of each cucumber shall be not more than 2-3/8 inches and the length of each cucumber shall be not less than 6 inches" Why is that reasonable? This regulation means, that perfectly fine cucumbers that happen to be a bit smaller will get thrown away. Or well, into the lower grade category, but even in the lowest category "maximum diameter of each cucumber shall be not more than 2-3/8 inches and the length of each cucumber shall be not less than 5 inches" These are arbitary size regulations. You do not need to regulate that to ban garbage. You can have a cucumber with the perfect shape, that is still garbage, because sunburned or too ripe or the plant was sick or whatever. Yes it should be illegal to sell garbage as fresh food and it probably is, but I do not see the connection to shape at all. This is merely aesthetics and personally I prefer a weird shaped ecological cucumber over a perfectly sized and shiny tasteless thing full of pesticides any day.

ilyt 4y ago

Putting money in infrastructure so customer sees it's cheaper to use EVs and just buys it is fine, but ban on ICE car sales is not "slight push".

hutzlibu 4y ago
Given the size of the problem climate change, it is a slight push, especially since the sales ban is supposed to start in 2035.

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> Who would pay for an infrastructure for EVs, when there are no EVs around? The owners, obviously. You think we installed gas stations before we had cars?

noirbot 4y ago
But an ICE car is an obvious improvement in both cost and usability to a horse-drawn carriage. Half of the value of an EV is that it's cheaper and easier to refuel. Making everyone who'd want one pay thousands to install infrastructure for them removes a lot of the reason you'd ever buy one, since it's otherwise essentially the same as an ICE car in terms of usage. If anything, right now, an EV is literally a worse car to an equivalent ICE in terms of what it's capable of. The reasons you'd have one is either general environmental altruism or because it'll be cheaper over the long term to own one.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Back when horse drawn carriages were the most common, EVs looked better than ICEs. We had to find the petroleum reserves before diesel and petrol could get cheap enough for ICEs to fully dominate over that era's EVs.
  - noirbot 4y ago
    Sure, but that's not really relevant to the point I'm trying to make. People moved away from animal-based travel to cars because cars had distinct improvements in usability and upkeep cost. It was ok to have the infrastructure come later because they were still an obvious improvement even without the infrastructure being in place yet. Right now, if I want an EV, I'm paying 20% more money to buy it, it's got a shorter range than my ICE for the same size car, and the infrastructure to do things like long trips with multiple recharges isn't there yet.
ilammy 4y ago
Okay, I'm interested, how did one get car fuel back then? Did people have to send one of their servants to a chemist for a mixture?
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filling_station#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filling_station#United_States : > The first "drive-in" filling station, Gulf Refining Company, opened to the motoring public in Pittsburgh on December 1, 1913, at Baum Boulevard and St Clair's Street. Prior to this, automobile drivers pulled into almost any general or hardware store, or even blacksmith shops in order to fill up their tanks.
loa_in_ 4y ago
No, but only because gas station idea (drive through automated fuel retail) wasn't a thing. However a human with a fuel reserve that could top you up was a thing before cars (a fuel retail). Before the dawn of the automobiles people were replacing steam engines with gas and liquid powered engines.

Kurtz79 4y ago

Here it is the USDA regulations on how cucumbers are supposed to bend and how to grade them: https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/cucumber-grades-and-standards https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/cucumber-grades-an... Damn that US government overreaching, telling cucumbers how much should they bend! ...or maybe that regulation is there for a reason (most times to protect consumers)?

hutzlibu 4y ago
"or maybe that regulation is there for a reason (most times to protect consumers)" Erm, can you tell me in what way a cucumber is dangerous to consumers, if its shape is bend a little bit more or less, so they need to be protected of that threat?
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  I'm looking at the USDA regulations and they seem reasonable to me. Looks like they're protecting consumers from being sold garbage labeled "cucumbers" instead of cucumbers labeled "cucumbers".
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    "The maximum diameter of each cucumber shall be not more than 2-3/8 inches and the length of each cucumber shall be not less than 6 inches" Why is that reasonable? This regulation means, that perfectly fine cucumbers that happen to be a bit smaller will get thrown away. Or well, into the lower grade category, but even in the lowest category "maximum diameter of each cucumber shall be not more than 2-3/8 inches and the length of each cucumber shall be not less than 5 inches" These are arbitary size regulations. You do not need to regulate that to ban garbage. You can have a cucumber with the perfect shape, that is still garbage, because sunburned or too ripe or the plant was sick or whatever. Yes it should be illegal to sell garbage as fresh food and it probably is, but I do not see the connection to shape at all. This is merely aesthetics and personally I prefer a weird shaped ecological cucumber over a perfectly sized and shiny tasteless thing full of pesticides any day.