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If you think Fauci is honest and trustworthy you're part of the problem in trying to 'other' those calling out the lies. The culture of "the people on my side

If you think Fauci is honest and trustworthy you're part of the problem in trying to 'other' those calling out the lies. The culture of "the people on my side are good/right but not yours" is a big part of today's problem, rather than "why isn't either party held to account?" Don't look into Fauci's research partners if you'd rather keep his image in tact for you. Both (in the US) parties have massive ties to and influence of the industries they regulate and govern and both get away with mass corruption wholesale, while people suck up ideas like Trump is an outsider hero and Pelosi is a champion for women. It's easy these days to find evidence of the corruption and lies because people don't rely on the print media to find it and filter it for them. Of course this does not mean it's all lies and people don't filter the false things either, but it should put an awful lot of pressure on those in power to stop the corruption and manipulation, yet we're seeing a doubling down and blaming the public for finding it. The wild conspiracy theories would disappear immediately if some authorities came out and said "yes, actually these X things are true, we apologies and will do Y in future. But these Z things are not true."

ss108 4y ago
I think looking at the character of the people criticizing Fauci--who never provide any specifics or substance--as well as the character of the people who such people admire is a pretty good heuristic for determining whether I should give any credence to what they are saying. I will always be happy to err on the side of "othering" people who believe in "alternative facts" and who assume that those in power simply lie and are corrupt. I was much more sympathetic with that mindset pre-2016, but seeing Trump and all that shit exposed to me how vacuous, empty, and baseless it all was--as well as how dangerous. My reaction to Trump was to really hunker down support for the center, the establishment, etc. But when I criticize attitudes and dispositions as "sophomoric" etc., it comes from a place of disgust because I remember my own mindset and how stupid and wrong it was.
- headsoup 4y ago
  Actually those people do provide specifics and substance, but people (as you here do) have a habit of generalising and dismissing with a broad stroke brush rather than doing some further investigation. The fact you even buy into using the term 'alternate facts' as used by those in power to dismiss counter argument or propose lies as truth highlights your attitude to paying any attention to things not on your 'side' of truth. What you should have done with Trump, is have a look at the actual policies and facts going on behind his bluster, hyperbole and lying. Not everything he put forward was wrong (e.g. some of his foreign policy), much like not everything put forward by Biden is right (for instance student debt forgiven at the federal level, where no student debt is held). Preposterous personalities (Trump's ego and overstatement and Biden's clear cognitive incapacity) are a great distraction from the real machinations.
  - ss108 4y ago
    I had a longer and more comprehensive response, but it was also kind of mean, and I generally don't want to indulge the bad habit of political flame wars with random strangers on the internet. It's a habit I'd like to stow away for good in 2023. One thing I do want to note though is that you somehow assume that I am not taking into consideration Trump's policies. A) I have (in fact, I worked on litigation against some of them). I don't know why you think I haven't. You also seem to assume that if someone were to examine his foreign policy, they would also view some of it as good. Why? I am aware generally of his foreign policy, and I saw little, if anything, to like. Not everyone shares your worldview. B) The big thing I think people of your persuasion miss is morality. I don't think his policies matter that much given the fact that I view him and his supporters* as deeply immoral and fucked up on multiple levels. I feel you will simply never understand this, and thus all of your entreaties and arguments, such as the ones above, will always miss the mark. I believe that you don't understand what the people you are debating think or believe, or why they think and believe it. Also, I don't get your thing about the federal debt--there are plenty of people with federal student loans, myself included. * When I say his "supporters" in this context, I really single out people who particularly like Trump and/or the "new right" more than they like traditional Republicans, conservative ideas. I obviously still have great beef with the Republicans who just went along with him, but I would say my ire is a bit tempered there. I'm still ok sharing a country with them, at least, let's put it that way.

ss108 4y ago

I think looking at the character of the people criticizing Fauci--who never provide any specifics or substance--as well as the character of the people who such people admire is a pretty good heuristic for determining whether I should give any credence to what they are saying. I will always be happy to err on the side of "othering" people who believe in "alternative facts" and who assume that those in power simply lie and are corrupt. I was much more sympathetic with that mindset pre-2016, but seeing Trump and all that shit exposed to me how vacuous, empty, and baseless it all was--as well as how dangerous. My reaction to Trump was to really hunker down support for the center, the establishment, etc. But when I criticize attitudes and dispositions as "sophomoric" etc., it comes from a place of disgust because I remember my own mindset and how stupid and wrong it was.

headsoup 4y ago
Actually those people do provide specifics and substance, but people (as you here do) have a habit of generalising and dismissing with a broad stroke brush rather than doing some further investigation. The fact you even buy into using the term 'alternate facts' as used by those in power to dismiss counter argument or propose lies as truth highlights your attitude to paying any attention to things not on your 'side' of truth. What you should have done with Trump, is have a look at the actual policies and facts going on behind his bluster, hyperbole and lying. Not everything he put forward was wrong (e.g. some of his foreign policy), much like not everything put forward by Biden is right (for instance student debt forgiven at the federal level, where no student debt is held). Preposterous personalities (Trump's ego and overstatement and Biden's clear cognitive incapacity) are a great distraction from the real machinations.
- ss108 4y ago
  I had a longer and more comprehensive response, but it was also kind of mean, and I generally don't want to indulge the bad habit of political flame wars with random strangers on the internet. It's a habit I'd like to stow away for good in 2023. One thing I do want to note though is that you somehow assume that I am not taking into consideration Trump's policies. A) I have (in fact, I worked on litigation against some of them). I don't know why you think I haven't. You also seem to assume that if someone were to examine his foreign policy, they would also view some of it as good. Why? I am aware generally of his foreign policy, and I saw little, if anything, to like. Not everyone shares your worldview. B) The big thing I think people of your persuasion miss is morality. I don't think his policies matter that much given the fact that I view him and his supporters* as deeply immoral and fucked up on multiple levels. I feel you will simply never understand this, and thus all of your entreaties and arguments, such as the ones above, will always miss the mark. I believe that you don't understand what the people you are debating think or believe, or why they think and believe it. Also, I don't get your thing about the federal debt--there are plenty of people with federal student loans, myself included. * When I say his "supporters" in this context, I really single out people who particularly like Trump and/or the "new right" more than they like traditional Republicans, conservative ideas. I obviously still have great beef with the Republicans who just went along with him, but I would say my ire is a bit tempered there. I'm still ok sharing a country with them, at least, let's put it that way.