4 ms·

> The M-W definition 2b is from Covid, so it's not indicative. Doesn't it meet this definition too? https://web.archive.org/web/20171006230722/https://diction

> The M-W definition 2b is from Covid, so it's not indicative. Doesn't it meet this definition too? https://web.archive.org/web/20171006230722/https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/lockdown https://web.archive.org/web/20171006230722/https://dictionar... > Re the article, it seems Mooney was legally in the right, which actually supports my point. How about this story then? https://idahonews.com/news/local/meridian-mom-arrested-at-park-during-covid-seeks-case-dismissal https://idahonews.com/news/local/meridian-mom-arrested-at-pa... > But the US overwhelmingly had stay at home suggestions. As far as I can tell, it was only a few counties in California that had bona fide stay at home orders. A lot of people thought the suggestions had the force of law, but they did not. And I wasn't going to correct them - that combination was the best we could have hoped for. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-stay-at-home-order.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-stay... disagrees. And even if they were just suggestions, why do you think a bunch of people being misinformed would be "the best we could have hoped for"? > Ultimately, the term "lockdown" is a motte and bailey term where the motte is evoking totalitarianism like China, with a fall back to defenses like "the paint was 'locked down' at Home Depot as it was deemed non-essential". No, even in the US, there were indeed orders to the effect of "no leaving home except to get food or medical care".

mindslight 4y ago
That is similar to M-W definition 2a, no? The point is that it revolves around a specific place. Referring to nonspecific "lockdown" implies it is general and society wide - ie everyone is stuck in their homes. The "emergency" part of that definition contributes to the hyperbole. Closing of a mall due to the pandemic is much closer to closing due to night time, than closing because it is an active crime scene. > How about this story then? [(mom "legitimately" arrested for being in park)] I agree that closing open air parks was extremely stupid and overbearing, even without the benefit of hindsight. But specific venues being closed, even ridiculously, still does not imply population wide "lockdown". > why do you think a bunch of people being misinformed would be "the best we could have hoped for"? I'm libertarian. In my estimation, the main reason libertarianism doesn't play out in practice is that people make poor decisions from relying on poor heuristics rather than really thinking things through. Have you ever tried to convince someone to engage in a mutually-beneficial course of action? Their ego fights it, presumably based on the possibility that you might be trying to trick them. For example, despite reports of the pandemic from January and February, most people stayed the course of denial until governments started taking action in mid-March. So when people have a poor understanding that causes them to make a better decision, I'd call that a win. Having governments lead people through speech is much more preferable than through law and its implied violence. (Note that this isn't an endorsement of so-called "libertarian paternalism" where the government actively gets in your way) > even in the US, there were indeed orders to the effect of "no leaving home except to get food or medical care". Find me more examples than the few counties in California, and I'll add them to my list. I'm sure more places did exist, it just didn't seem to be a large part of the country, from what I can tell.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > That is similar to M-W definition 2a, no? Sure, but doesn't it fit the way it was used? And it's an archived version of the page from 2017, so it can't be from Covid. > But specific venues being closed, even ridiculously, still does not imply population wide "lockdown". But it wasn't just specific venues. It was everywhere except grocery stores and medical facilities. > Find me more examples than the few counties in California, and I'll add them to my list. I'm sure more places did exist, it just didn't seem to be a large part of the country, from what I can tell. Aren't all of the states in https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-stay-at-home-order.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-stay... that I previously linked to more examples?
  - mindslight 4y ago
    I was only saying that m-w.com definition 2b is from Covid (look at the first example sentence). I was saying that M-W definition 2a and the dictionary.com definition from 2017 apply to a specific place. Sorry, I must have brushed off the NYT link because its hard to read with their javascript plus nagwall. My state is on there, highlighted, and described as having an "order", yet it was not an order with the force of law. I started going through their list of states and links to orders/coverage. I made it through "N", for a total of 30 states on the list (out of 34 states whose names start with N or below). My definition of a bona fide stay at home order is something that encompasses all individual behavior in general, and then may carve out exceptions - as contrasted with something that only prohibits explicit activities. Thus, I'm still counting states with an exception for outdoor recreation as having an order. There are a few states with some pretty wide exceptions that would seem to make the order basically unenforceable, but I'll count that as having an order, both philosophically and practically (I don't want to go back and re-analyze each order). Of those 30, 17 have orders stated with the force of law, 6 are mere suggestions and not orders, and 7 were indeterminate by my quick scan (the link to official decree rotted with time). Bona fide legal orders are much more prevalent than I had thought, and apparently I didn't realize how sensibly my own state handled things. I heard people in my own state commonly refer to the (nonexistent) stay at home order, and figured it was mostly similar elsewhere despite the media's narrative (eg extrapolate from that NYT page being incorrect for my state). I still question how long these orders were actually in effect, and the general tendency to label everything as a "lockdown" when most of what people are referring to is closing specific businesses and venues for specific reasons. But I do concede the point it was more than a few counties in California.

mindslight 4y ago

That is similar to M-W definition 2a, no? The point is that it revolves around a specific place. Referring to nonspecific "lockdown" implies it is general and society wide - ie everyone is stuck in their homes. The "emergency" part of that definition contributes to the hyperbole. Closing of a mall due to the pandemic is much closer to closing due to night time, than closing because it is an active crime scene. > How about this story then? [(mom "legitimately" arrested for being in park)] I agree that closing open air parks was extremely stupid and overbearing, even without the benefit of hindsight. But specific venues being closed, even ridiculously, still does not imply population wide "lockdown". > why do you think a bunch of people being misinformed would be "the best we could have hoped for"? I'm libertarian. In my estimation, the main reason libertarianism doesn't play out in practice is that people make poor decisions from relying on poor heuristics rather than really thinking things through. Have you ever tried to convince someone to engage in a mutually-beneficial course of action? Their ego fights it, presumably based on the possibility that you might be trying to trick them. For example, despite reports of the pandemic from January and February, most people stayed the course of denial until governments started taking action in mid-March. So when people have a poor understanding that causes them to make a better decision, I'd call that a win. Having governments lead people through speech is much more preferable than through law and its implied violence. (Note that this isn't an endorsement of so-called "libertarian paternalism" where the government actively gets in your way) > even in the US, there were indeed orders to the effect of "no leaving home except to get food or medical care". Find me more examples than the few counties in California, and I'll add them to my list. I'm sure more places did exist, it just didn't seem to be a large part of the country, from what I can tell.

josephcsible 4y ago
> That is similar to M-W definition 2a, no? Sure, but doesn't it fit the way it was used? And it's an archived version of the page from 2017, so it can't be from Covid. > But specific venues being closed, even ridiculously, still does not imply population wide "lockdown". But it wasn't just specific venues. It was everywhere except grocery stores and medical facilities. > Find me more examples than the few counties in California, and I'll add them to my list. I'm sure more places did exist, it just didn't seem to be a large part of the country, from what I can tell. Aren't all of the states in https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-stay-at-home-order.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-stay... that I previously linked to more examples?
- mindslight 4y ago
  I was only saying that m-w.com definition 2b is from Covid (look at the first example sentence). I was saying that M-W definition 2a and the dictionary.com definition from 2017 apply to a specific place. Sorry, I must have brushed off the NYT link because its hard to read with their javascript plus nagwall. My state is on there, highlighted, and described as having an "order", yet it was not an order with the force of law. I started going through their list of states and links to orders/coverage. I made it through "N", for a total of 30 states on the list (out of 34 states whose names start with N or below). My definition of a bona fide stay at home order is something that encompasses all individual behavior in general, and then may carve out exceptions - as contrasted with something that only prohibits explicit activities. Thus, I'm still counting states with an exception for outdoor recreation as having an order. There are a few states with some pretty wide exceptions that would seem to make the order basically unenforceable, but I'll count that as having an order, both philosophically and practically (I don't want to go back and re-analyze each order). Of those 30, 17 have orders stated with the force of law, 6 are mere suggestions and not orders, and 7 were indeterminate by my quick scan (the link to official decree rotted with time). Bona fide legal orders are much more prevalent than I had thought, and apparently I didn't realize how sensibly my own state handled things. I heard people in my own state commonly refer to the (nonexistent) stay at home order, and figured it was mostly similar elsewhere despite the media's narrative (eg extrapolate from that NYT page being incorrect for my state). I still question how long these orders were actually in effect, and the general tendency to label everything as a "lockdown" when most of what people are referring to is closing specific businesses and venues for specific reasons. But I do concede the point it was more than a few counties in California.