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Are these contrarian/scandalous/unapologetically insulting figures a new phenomenon or have they always been a part of pop culture? Seems like Tate-like or Yian

Are these contrarian/scandalous/unapologetically insulting figures a new phenomenon or have they always been a part of pop culture? Seems like Tate-like or Yiannopoulos-like personas are attracting a lot of media coverage.

synu 4y ago
There’s a good new podcast called The New Gurus from the BBC which explores this.
croes 4y ago
Attention is the currency of the digital age.
nxm 4y ago
Have you listened to Tate in a more than 15 sec clip? I don’t agree with everything he says but he does speak the otherwise unspoken truth on many topics. His attention is justified.
- gattilorenz 4y ago
  Care to provide examples of such topics and truths?
- jamal-kumar 4y ago
  I watched a bunch of his "Hustler's University" thing on youtube. It was a really entertaining mix of alright business advice mixed in with what sounded like incitement to commit fraud (And I'm not a lawyer so don't quote me on this). It's mostly bereft of making any misogynistic comments or anything like that which he's known for otherwise. I'll give him one thing, he is a pretty entertaining showman, I just would like to remind people that a ton of what he says probably would make a lawyer balk. He has a whole section about doing shit that makes you money first and caring about legal later which is especially insane. Oh yeah and then there's that video of him hitting a girl with a belt. Yeah, don't do shit like that.
- themitigating 4y ago
  You're attributing equal value to all his views.
- foreverCarlos 4y ago
  I have not. I prefer finding these unspoken trusts in other sources, personas like Tate are too mind-polluting for me.
ffssffss 4y ago
No it goes way back to the 80s and 90s when radio consolidated. You had guys like Limbaugh reading off lists of men who died of AIDS and laughing at them. Same grift, different generation.
- foreverCarlos 4y ago
  Oh Limbaugh! He was popular before my time, and the more I learn about him the more I am puzzled by who would enjoy listening to something like what you describe.
  - d23 4y ago
    People with a darkness at the center of their being, I’m afraid.
    - scarecrowbob 4y ago
      I wouldn't say that my dad has darkness at the center of his being. At a certain point there's a real lack of political power in the US-- specifically, I am thinking of Mark Fisher's understanding of Capitalist Realism. In that system, it feels as if nothing material will ever change, and so all that is left is the aesthetic and apolitical hatred of other groups of people. My dad was a substitute teacher who mostly took care of the kids and went to church on Sundays and played trombone with a bunch of Shriners. He was never politically plugged in, he just was raised in a house that operated very much like the setting of Leave it to Beaver. So for him, watching cultural changes and being outraged over them were pretty much the only surface on which he felt connection to politics, as far as I can tell. From my standpoint, those cultural markers are pretty much the main differentiation between liberal Democrats and the GOP. They are both centrist capitalist parties that need to maintain US hegemony through foreign wars and who are both owned by the folks who own the business of the US. It's a shit substitute for action, but for a lot of folks falling into the tribalism of that culture war is the only possibility they see for political action. And while I find his political aesthetic to be both self-contradictory and profoundly alienating I have enough awareness to see how people who aren't evil in their intent can take up one side of culture war instead of the other. And as someone who finds the anonymously penned "Desert" to be a plausible understanding of the current ecological/economical/political climate, I am not sure that short of a wholesale rejection of the politics of the spectacle there is a lot to be gained from these aesthetics... even if I know where I fall and who I support in that game and whose defeats I will happily cheer. But like I said, I think that's more a product of a shitty situation rather than some evil spot in someones' soul.
cocacola1 4y ago
Historically, I think they've been called provocateurs – colloquially known as assholes. They've always attracted media coverage, but now every site & app has the power to deliver media coverage to you, so you see a lot more about them.
- foreverCarlos 4y ago
  Right, that’s the word I was looking for! However, my, perhaps incomplete, recollection of famous provocateurs of the past was centered around acts like Salvador Dali walking around with his anteater, rather than a misogynist kickboxer ranting about “weak men”.
  - cocacola1 4y ago
    I think that's just a part of society changing. What used to be weird or outrageous might be considered tame now. I'd probably raise an eyebrow at someone walking their anteaters, but I'd probably shrug it off after a second and continue on my way.
kfkfldklf 4y ago
They can't be THAT new; punk culture got its start nearly SIXTY years ago, as an example of a subculture that was intentionally inspiration insulting
- foreverCarlos 4y ago
  I guess you are right! I just personally can relate much more to punk culture than to Tate. But the focus on the insult is probably very similar.
- d23 4y ago
  As far as I can tell, the difference is past counterculture was about punching up, not down.
  - SauciestGNU 4y ago
    Yeah punk is fighting for liberation, Tate and his acolytes are fighting for the ability to oppress, abuse, and (if the allegations are true) literally enslave people.
    - foreverCarlos 4y ago
      That sounds like the right distinction. I wonder if in someone else’s eyes Tate is fighting for men’s liberation from the oppressive (in their view) constraints that the society forced on them?..
  - yucky 4y ago
    This reads like you think women are below men though. I assume you don't mean that, but it's hard to think up an alternate explanation. Power dynamics maybe? I dunno, I could list thousands of women more powerful than a youtuber or whatever he is.
JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago
Everybody wants to be a spokesperson or a politician because essentially it’s a job where you get paid to say stuff or today you don’t even have to say anything, just tweet. In this case a rivalry was shaping up between 2 such characters: Thumberg and Tate The former representing the perma-concern and the latter representing the perma-carefree persona

synu 4y ago

There’s a good new podcast called The New Gurus from the BBC which explores this.

croes 4y ago

Attention is the currency of the digital age.

nxm 4y ago

Have you listened to Tate in a more than 15 sec clip? I don’t agree with everything he says but he does speak the otherwise unspoken truth on many topics. His attention is justified.

gattilorenz 4y ago
Care to provide examples of such topics and truths?
jamal-kumar 4y ago
I watched a bunch of his "Hustler's University" thing on youtube. It was a really entertaining mix of alright business advice mixed in with what sounded like incitement to commit fraud (And I'm not a lawyer so don't quote me on this). It's mostly bereft of making any misogynistic comments or anything like that which he's known for otherwise. I'll give him one thing, he is a pretty entertaining showman, I just would like to remind people that a ton of what he says probably would make a lawyer balk. He has a whole section about doing shit that makes you money first and caring about legal later which is especially insane. Oh yeah and then there's that video of him hitting a girl with a belt. Yeah, don't do shit like that.
themitigating 4y ago
You're attributing equal value to all his views.
foreverCarlos 4y ago
I have not. I prefer finding these unspoken trusts in other sources, personas like Tate are too mind-polluting for me.

ffssffss 4y ago

No it goes way back to the 80s and 90s when radio consolidated. You had guys like Limbaugh reading off lists of men who died of AIDS and laughing at them. Same grift, different generation.

foreverCarlos 4y ago
Oh Limbaugh! He was popular before my time, and the more I learn about him the more I am puzzled by who would enjoy listening to something like what you describe.
- d23 4y ago
  People with a darkness at the center of their being, I’m afraid.
  - scarecrowbob 4y ago
    I wouldn't say that my dad has darkness at the center of his being. At a certain point there's a real lack of political power in the US-- specifically, I am thinking of Mark Fisher's understanding of Capitalist Realism. In that system, it feels as if nothing material will ever change, and so all that is left is the aesthetic and apolitical hatred of other groups of people. My dad was a substitute teacher who mostly took care of the kids and went to church on Sundays and played trombone with a bunch of Shriners. He was never politically plugged in, he just was raised in a house that operated very much like the setting of Leave it to Beaver. So for him, watching cultural changes and being outraged over them were pretty much the only surface on which he felt connection to politics, as far as I can tell. From my standpoint, those cultural markers are pretty much the main differentiation between liberal Democrats and the GOP. They are both centrist capitalist parties that need to maintain US hegemony through foreign wars and who are both owned by the folks who own the business of the US. It's a shit substitute for action, but for a lot of folks falling into the tribalism of that culture war is the only possibility they see for political action. And while I find his political aesthetic to be both self-contradictory and profoundly alienating I have enough awareness to see how people who aren't evil in their intent can take up one side of culture war instead of the other. And as someone who finds the anonymously penned "Desert" to be a plausible understanding of the current ecological/economical/political climate, I am not sure that short of a wholesale rejection of the politics of the spectacle there is a lot to be gained from these aesthetics... even if I know where I fall and who I support in that game and whose defeats I will happily cheer. But like I said, I think that's more a product of a shitty situation rather than some evil spot in someones' soul.

cocacola1 4y ago

Historically, I think they've been called provocateurs – colloquially known as assholes. They've always attracted media coverage, but now every site & app has the power to deliver media coverage to you, so you see a lot more about them.

foreverCarlos 4y ago
Right, that’s the word I was looking for! However, my, perhaps incomplete, recollection of famous provocateurs of the past was centered around acts like Salvador Dali walking around with his anteater, rather than a misogynist kickboxer ranting about “weak men”.
- cocacola1 4y ago
  I think that's just a part of society changing. What used to be weird or outrageous might be considered tame now. I'd probably raise an eyebrow at someone walking their anteaters, but I'd probably shrug it off after a second and continue on my way.

kfkfldklf 4y ago

They can't be THAT new; punk culture got its start nearly SIXTY years ago, as an example of a subculture that was intentionally inspiration insulting

foreverCarlos 4y ago
I guess you are right! I just personally can relate much more to punk culture than to Tate. But the focus on the insult is probably very similar.
d23 4y ago
As far as I can tell, the difference is past counterculture was about punching up, not down.
- SauciestGNU 4y ago
  Yeah punk is fighting for liberation, Tate and his acolytes are fighting for the ability to oppress, abuse, and (if the allegations are true) literally enslave people.
  - foreverCarlos 4y ago
    That sounds like the right distinction. I wonder if in someone else’s eyes Tate is fighting for men’s liberation from the oppressive (in their view) constraints that the society forced on them?..
- yucky 4y ago
  This reads like you think women are below men though. I assume you don't mean that, but it's hard to think up an alternate explanation. Power dynamics maybe? I dunno, I could list thousands of women more powerful than a youtuber or whatever he is.

JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago

Everybody wants to be a spokesperson or a politician because essentially it’s a job where you get paid to say stuff or today you don’t even have to say anything, just tweet. In this case a rivalry was shaping up between 2 such characters: Thumberg and Tate The former representing the perma-concern and the latter representing the perma-carefree persona