6 ms·

Tesla confirms 285,000 people bought Full Self-Driving

33 points by cma 4y ago

MuffinFlavored 4y ago
I wonder how this breaks down by state. Obviously driving from Miami to Orlando (or all the way to Tallahassee) is a different drive than driving in the cities of New York or Los Angeles or San Francisco or Austin or whatever densely populated city there is. I wonder if that influences decisions. Maybe consumers are saying "I've read so many weird headlines about FSD and its flaws, my typical daily drive is so complex, let me not even bother trying."
- cma 4y ago
  To me it seems like an incredible number of purchases. $1-3 billion on vaporware depending on pricing distribution. Interventions per mile seem to be 4 orders of magnitude worse than the big players in the space (though they limit operating area).
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    FSD has dramatically improved over the last three to four months. I would be interested in seeing the trend on that metric with autopilot. For my own experience I’ve found my interventions on local street driving has reduced to zero or a small number per session (which is an easier metric for me to mentally track than per mile, which is subject to highway and straightaway driving skewing down - local street driving is insanely complex, especially in an urban area and doubly so in a randomly planned urban area like seattle)
    - code_runner 4y ago
      It’s improved based on a heuristic for you based on whatever area you tend to drive in. (Maybe interventions is reported by the car after a session, but it’s still a small sample size.) At the end of the day, you still don’t have the feature you paid for, you’ve paid to be part of a (very risky) beta test. I don’t think that’s how most people buying FSD planned on this going.
      - fnordpiglet 4y ago
        I paid to fund research into autonomous driving, because I believe human steering of cars is a huge public health problem. I generally find FSD with highway driving level attention to be safer overall because it’s pervasively aware. I can’t maintain 360 degree awareness 100% of the time no matter how hard I try, but the car does. I keep my attention on the big dangers and monitor it’s performance closely and that’s enough to improve my overall driving safety. My goal was never press a button and take a nap - although that would be cool. My goal was to crowd fund research into methods to make driving assistance more complete and accessible to everyone. I have been satisfied with the progress, even if teslas research doesn’t pan out into what they advertised as their aspiration. Research rarely does. But I believe they’ve materially advanced the state of the art, have created broad awareness, and have driving investment in other R&D efforts in both established car makers, new entrants, tech companies, and labs, etc. Solving traffic safety will be akin to curing cancer, so I feel well rewarded for my donation. Plus, whether you want to accept my metric, my metric is the one that matters to me, and it was I who spent the money for it. (I would note again that per driving session accounts for most traffic accidents better than per mile as highway driving accumulates miles faster than local driving and has significantly less accidents, and all sessions start and end with local driving).
        code_runner 4y ago
        that may be why you paid, but it is not what you paid for.
        fnordpiglet 4y ago
        https://electrek.co/2022/03/24/tesla-spends-most-rd-least-advertising-car-sold/ https://electrek.co/2022/03/24/tesla-spends-most-rd-least-ad... As a ratio of spend, it turns out I did.
        code_runner 4y ago
        You didn’t buy “crowdfunded yada yada”. You bought a product called “full self driving”. You did end up paying for Tesla to figure out how to build the product that didn’t exist when sold. (all of which should’ve become a useable product “next year” by the way) The fact you’re ok with that doesn’t mean everyone else is. It doesn’t mean it was marketed ethically. I’m not even saying you were swindled. I think teslas seem like nice cars. You’re just making the wrong argument. They sold everyone a snickers. Just because you’re happy to have nougat and a little Carmel doesn’t change the fact you’re missing peanuts and chocolate.
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      I think it's more that your perception of FSD has improved over the last 3 or 4 months. As a non-Tesla driver forced to drive alongside many Teslas on my regular commute (I drive past Hawthorne, i.e., SpaceX), my experience is that FSD/AP has actually gotten worse. Phantom breaking, extreme tailgating, veering across double-yellow lines, right turns that narrowly miss pedestrians... My coworker has a Tesla and he refuses to engage AP or FSD anymore. He had multiple interventions/disengagements during every drive (in his words: every few miles) and the last one involved his Tesla veering into the opposite lane because it mistook a drainage groove in the road for a lane marker.
      - fnordpiglet 4y ago
        My perception is based on my ability to successfully navigate in complex situations without intervention much more than before. As a user of the product that’s my primary concern. If it’s merely perception then it’s the perception I’m optimizing for, so great.
    - vineyardmike 4y ago
      > especially in an urban area and doubly so in a randomly planned urban area like seattle Seattle is a wonderful planned city with very predictable roads, and very safe drivers. I want to see how a tesla navigated Boston. That’s a city that wasn’t planned, has much more aggressive drivers, and inclement weather much more often.
      - fnordpiglet 4y ago
        Have you actually driven in seattle residential streets? I’m making no claims about Boston, but that first statement is objectively wrong.
        vineyardmike 4y ago
        Yes I have. It’s mostly a north/south grid everywhere, broken up a bit by neighborhood (eg belltown is different than Queen Anne). Some of the smaller neighborhoods (Mt Baker, near university, etc) aren’t great grids but you shouldn’t need to traverse them unless you live in it. It varies a bit by neighborhood, but for the most part Avenues run north/south and streets run east west. Makes it very easy to navigate. Much of the city also uses numbered names, for avenues. If you’re trying to get to 22nd ave and you’re on 17th, you know you need to travel west - along a street (any street) and you should reach it. On a larger level, the city planners have done a great job wrt gradual density increases in the city, and consistent up zoning along transit corridors. They’ve done a good job at promoting biking and alternative transit by building out a useful set of bike paths (if imperfect). I think the link expansions missed the mark, cost too much, and will take too long to build, but that doesn’t impact driving experience. I think the city should have dumped a ton of street cars (like in SLU and cap hill) across the city instead. Boston, by comparison, is based on animal trails, and the grid is not consistent within a neighborhood, and is non existent across neighborhoods. The street names give you almost no insight into where you’re going. Compare the cities here: https://geoffboeing.com/2018/07/comparing-city-street-orientations/ https://geoffboeing.com/2018/07/comparing-city-street-orient... Oh and as far as drivers go, Boston drivers are way way more aggressive. I won’t claim they’re worse at driving or break more laws, but they’re used to way more traffic, and they’re way more aggressive.
Queue29 4y ago
I wonder what percentage of those feel they got their money's worth.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  I bought it, but I bought it as a donation towards funding R&D in the space of autonomous driving. I’ve found FSD useless outside of highway driving, which adaptive cruise control does ok at. That has however changed in the last year and the FSD has improved dramatically over months to the point I can reasonably navigate door to door in a hostile and negligently adversarial driving environment like seattle without fear of imminent death. If I were evaluating it on “what could I have materially attained for the price of FSD” I don’t think I got a good deal. But again, I didn’t spend the money with that in mind. I bought it with the idea that $3b in consumer crowd funding of FSD will materially advance the end of human intermediated driving - which I think is akin to curing cancer.
  - kilna 4y ago
    I marvel that there are people who thought donating to the richest man in the world (or one of the richest men at the time) would result in something other than him just taking your money.
    - jddj 4y ago
      It's a backwards-looking explanation though in this instance, and so subject to explanations and recollections which frame the purchaser as not having been fooled but rather <something more noble>. Not to say I live inside parent's head or anything of that sort, and they could be accurately remembering their intention and expectations at the time, but if I had to bet?
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      Elon Musk doesn’t receive all revenues from Tesla, nor does he personally own it. Money spent on a Tesla primarily goes into operating expenses. Money earned by Elon primarily comes from shareholders bidding up the value of his equity.
7e 4y ago
When you pay for FSD part of a lease, then return the car before any part of FSD was ever released to the public (and thus available to you), Tesla refuses to refund. Outright, bald faced fraud.
- brookst 4y ago
  That is insane and indeed fraud. But who would pay for an undelivered feature on a leased car?
  - skyyler 4y ago
    The same people that grew up pre-ordering video games that sometimes never released.
    - CoastalCoder 4y ago
      For me, that would be Star Citizen and Animusic 3. Both were through Kickstarter, so I knew up front that there was some risk. (Although, at least with Star Citizen, I suspect there's a reasonable argument that I'm owed a refund. IMHO Chris Roberts hasn't acted in good faith with our transaction.)
      - TheDesolate0 4y ago
        [dead]
    - brookst 4y ago
      Fair point, and I’ve certainly wasted a couple of hundred bucks on games that didn’t ship. But even I am smart enougn not to pay to own a non-existent option for a car I am renting.
- tzm 4y ago
  This isn't what's happening. Anyone who subscribes to FSD has access to current capability features. Like most software services, there are no refunds for software purchased during a billing period.
thinkmcfly 4y ago
Out of 285k, 0 people currently have FSD
toss1 4y ago
Tesla started offering on Oct. 19, 2016 a "Full self-driving capability" option package requiring a $5,000 Enhanced Autopilot feature as well as a $3,000 Full Self-Driving Capability feature [0]. The "FSD" package now costs over $15,000. Moreover, the "FSD" option cannot always be transferred to the buyer when you sell the car [1]. According to this article, 285,000 people have purchased it. Yet "Full Self-Driving" is nowhere near delivering anything like it's promise, many say it is not worth the price [2], and this failure is currently under several federal investigations. It's been 2263 days since the "FSD" introduction. That amounts to 125.9 FSD sales per day, or about 12.5/ hour (in 10 hour work days), or one sale every 4.8 minutes. P. T. Barnum is credited with saying: "There's a sucker born every minute" Tesla is doing an excellent job of validating* P. T. Barnum's claim. [0] https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/timeline-of-tesla-self-driving-aspirations-a9686689375/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/timeline-... [1] https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/does-full-self-driving-fsd-transfer-when-you-sell-a-tesla/ https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/does-full-self-driving-f... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/07/business/tesla-fsd-price-increase/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/07/business/tesla-fsd-price-incr... [*] while one sale per 4.8 minutes is greater than 1/min, we do need to consider that most suckers cannot afford, and are not in the market for, a premium car such as a Tesla.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > Tesla is doing an excellent job of validating* P. T. Barnum's claim. And an excellent job of showing how useless the FTC is.
  - TheDesolate0 4y ago
    [dead]
bogomipz 4y ago
I was reading through the comments on the electrek.co post and was struck by this particular comment: >"I paid $3K US, well before the FSD cost skyrocketed. While taking a cross-country drive in my 2018 Model 3 last August through October, with multiple terrifying phantom braking and autosteer (avoiding nonexistent objects in the roadway) incidents, I tried to get my beta removed, but was told it is not possible. “Just turn it off on your screen”, but that completely removed autopilot and adaptive cruise, so I found all I could do was turn off one action, but phantom braking and autosteer failures continued." Can anyone confirm if this is still the case? Is there any kind of warning Tesla gives when ordering this package that it's impossible to remove once enabled? What would be the technical reason it couldn't be disabled once enabled? This seems awful.
- cypress66 4y ago
  Fsd beta has only been available since late 2020 (and to a tiny group). So I don't know what's he talking about.
  - bogomipz 4y ago
    FSD was offered as an upgrade to EA(Enhanced Autopilot) in 2016.[1] The driver in the comment explained that he has a 2018 model and he was discussing his experience with FSD on a road trip that occurred in August through October of this year. >"Enhanced Autopilot(EA) was announced later in 2016 as an extra-cost option that used a new hardware suite developed by Tesla; the key distinguishing feature for EA, "Navigate on Autopilot", which uses the new hardware suite to guide the vehicle on controlled-access roads, from on-ramp to off-ramp, was delayed until 2018. At the same time that EA was introduced, Tesla also offered Full Self-Driving(FSD) as an upgrade option to EA in 2016, which would extend machine-guided driving capabilities to local roads.[21] FSD beta testing started in October 2020."[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot
TheDesolate0 4y ago
[dead]
rhaway84773 4y ago
Basically a bunch of people donated nearly $3Bn to Tesla so Tesla could track their data even more intrusively. Nice.
more_corn 4y ago
That’s a lot of refunds owed.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
If you don't like driving, why are you buying a car?
- bandyaboot 4y ago
  Well this is quite an interesting take. I don’t buy a screw driver because I enjoy turning screws. In fact, I’ve invested significantly more money to buy a battery powered version that does the turning of the screws for me.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    Okay, I don't see why that's comparable. If you don't like driving a car, go by bus.
    - bandyaboot 4y ago
      Well it would seem that for a lot of people, the convenience of having a car to take them exactly where they want to go, exactly when they want to go there outweighs the benefit of not having to drive when using public transit.

33 points by cma 4y ago

I wonder how this breaks down by state. Obviously driving from Miami to Orlando (or all the way to Tallahassee) is a different drive than driving in the cities of New York or Los Angeles or San Francisco or Austin or whatever densely populated city there is. I wonder if that influences decisions. Maybe consumers are saying "I've read so many weird headlines about FSD and its flaws, my typical daily drive is so complex, let me not even bother trying."

cma 4y ago
To me it seems like an incredible number of purchases. $1-3 billion on vaporware depending on pricing distribution. Interventions per mile seem to be 4 orders of magnitude worse than the big players in the space (though they limit operating area).
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  FSD has dramatically improved over the last three to four months. I would be interested in seeing the trend on that metric with autopilot. For my own experience I’ve found my interventions on local street driving has reduced to zero or a small number per session (which is an easier metric for me to mentally track than per mile, which is subject to highway and straightaway driving skewing down - local street driving is insanely complex, especially in an urban area and doubly so in a randomly planned urban area like seattle)
  - code_runner 4y ago
    It’s improved based on a heuristic for you based on whatever area you tend to drive in. (Maybe interventions is reported by the car after a session, but it’s still a small sample size.) At the end of the day, you still don’t have the feature you paid for, you’ve paid to be part of a (very risky) beta test. I don’t think that’s how most people buying FSD planned on this going.
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      I paid to fund research into autonomous driving, because I believe human steering of cars is a huge public health problem. I generally find FSD with highway driving level attention to be safer overall because it’s pervasively aware. I can’t maintain 360 degree awareness 100% of the time no matter how hard I try, but the car does. I keep my attention on the big dangers and monitor it’s performance closely and that’s enough to improve my overall driving safety. My goal was never press a button and take a nap - although that would be cool. My goal was to crowd fund research into methods to make driving assistance more complete and accessible to everyone. I have been satisfied with the progress, even if teslas research doesn’t pan out into what they advertised as their aspiration. Research rarely does. But I believe they’ve materially advanced the state of the art, have created broad awareness, and have driving investment in other R&D efforts in both established car makers, new entrants, tech companies, and labs, etc. Solving traffic safety will be akin to curing cancer, so I feel well rewarded for my donation. Plus, whether you want to accept my metric, my metric is the one that matters to me, and it was I who spent the money for it. (I would note again that per driving session accounts for most traffic accidents better than per mile as highway driving accumulates miles faster than local driving and has significantly less accidents, and all sessions start and end with local driving).
      - code_runner 4y ago
        that may be why you paid, but it is not what you paid for.
        fnordpiglet 4y ago
        https://electrek.co/2022/03/24/tesla-spends-most-rd-least-advertising-car-sold/ https://electrek.co/2022/03/24/tesla-spends-most-rd-least-ad... As a ratio of spend, it turns out I did.
        code_runner 4y ago
        You didn’t buy “crowdfunded yada yada”. You bought a product called “full self driving”. You did end up paying for Tesla to figure out how to build the product that didn’t exist when sold. (all of which should’ve become a useable product “next year” by the way) The fact you’re ok with that doesn’t mean everyone else is. It doesn’t mean it was marketed ethically. I’m not even saying you were swindled. I think teslas seem like nice cars. You’re just making the wrong argument. They sold everyone a snickers. Just because you’re happy to have nougat and a little Carmel doesn’t change the fact you’re missing peanuts and chocolate.
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    I think it's more that your perception of FSD has improved over the last 3 or 4 months. As a non-Tesla driver forced to drive alongside many Teslas on my regular commute (I drive past Hawthorne, i.e., SpaceX), my experience is that FSD/AP has actually gotten worse. Phantom breaking, extreme tailgating, veering across double-yellow lines, right turns that narrowly miss pedestrians... My coworker has a Tesla and he refuses to engage AP or FSD anymore. He had multiple interventions/disengagements during every drive (in his words: every few miles) and the last one involved his Tesla veering into the opposite lane because it mistook a drainage groove in the road for a lane marker.
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      My perception is based on my ability to successfully navigate in complex situations without intervention much more than before. As a user of the product that’s my primary concern. If it’s merely perception then it’s the perception I’m optimizing for, so great.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    > especially in an urban area and doubly so in a randomly planned urban area like seattle Seattle is a wonderful planned city with very predictable roads, and very safe drivers. I want to see how a tesla navigated Boston. That’s a city that wasn’t planned, has much more aggressive drivers, and inclement weather much more often.
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      Have you actually driven in seattle residential streets? I’m making no claims about Boston, but that first statement is objectively wrong.
      - vineyardmike 4y ago
        Yes I have. It’s mostly a north/south grid everywhere, broken up a bit by neighborhood (eg belltown is different than Queen Anne). Some of the smaller neighborhoods (Mt Baker, near university, etc) aren’t great grids but you shouldn’t need to traverse them unless you live in it. It varies a bit by neighborhood, but for the most part Avenues run north/south and streets run east west. Makes it very easy to navigate. Much of the city also uses numbered names, for avenues. If you’re trying to get to 22nd ave and you’re on 17th, you know you need to travel west - along a street (any street) and you should reach it. On a larger level, the city planners have done a great job wrt gradual density increases in the city, and consistent up zoning along transit corridors. They’ve done a good job at promoting biking and alternative transit by building out a useful set of bike paths (if imperfect). I think the link expansions missed the mark, cost too much, and will take too long to build, but that doesn’t impact driving experience. I think the city should have dumped a ton of street cars (like in SLU and cap hill) across the city instead. Boston, by comparison, is based on animal trails, and the grid is not consistent within a neighborhood, and is non existent across neighborhoods. The street names give you almost no insight into where you’re going. Compare the cities here: https://geoffboeing.com/2018/07/comparing-city-street-orientations/ https://geoffboeing.com/2018/07/comparing-city-street-orient... Oh and as far as drivers go, Boston drivers are way way more aggressive. I won’t claim they’re worse at driving or break more laws, but they’re used to way more traffic, and they’re way more aggressive.

Queue29 4y ago

I wonder what percentage of those feel they got their money's worth.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
I bought it, but I bought it as a donation towards funding R&D in the space of autonomous driving. I’ve found FSD useless outside of highway driving, which adaptive cruise control does ok at. That has however changed in the last year and the FSD has improved dramatically over months to the point I can reasonably navigate door to door in a hostile and negligently adversarial driving environment like seattle without fear of imminent death. If I were evaluating it on “what could I have materially attained for the price of FSD” I don’t think I got a good deal. But again, I didn’t spend the money with that in mind. I bought it with the idea that $3b in consumer crowd funding of FSD will materially advance the end of human intermediated driving - which I think is akin to curing cancer.
- kilna 4y ago
  I marvel that there are people who thought donating to the richest man in the world (or one of the richest men at the time) would result in something other than him just taking your money.
  - jddj 4y ago
    It's a backwards-looking explanation though in this instance, and so subject to explanations and recollections which frame the purchaser as not having been fooled but rather <something more noble>. Not to say I live inside parent's head or anything of that sort, and they could be accurately remembering their intention and expectations at the time, but if I had to bet?
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    Elon Musk doesn’t receive all revenues from Tesla, nor does he personally own it. Money spent on a Tesla primarily goes into operating expenses. Money earned by Elon primarily comes from shareholders bidding up the value of his equity.

7e 4y ago

When you pay for FSD part of a lease, then return the car before any part of FSD was ever released to the public (and thus available to you), Tesla refuses to refund. Outright, bald faced fraud.

brookst 4y ago
That is insane and indeed fraud. But who would pay for an undelivered feature on a leased car?
- skyyler 4y ago
  The same people that grew up pre-ordering video games that sometimes never released.
  - CoastalCoder 4y ago
    For me, that would be Star Citizen and Animusic 3. Both were through Kickstarter, so I knew up front that there was some risk. (Although, at least with Star Citizen, I suspect there's a reasonable argument that I'm owed a refund. IMHO Chris Roberts hasn't acted in good faith with our transaction.)
    - TheDesolate0 4y ago
      [dead]
  - brookst 4y ago
    Fair point, and I’ve certainly wasted a couple of hundred bucks on games that didn’t ship. But even I am smart enougn not to pay to own a non-existent option for a car I am renting.
tzm 4y ago
This isn't what's happening. Anyone who subscribes to FSD has access to current capability features. Like most software services, there are no refunds for software purchased during a billing period.

thinkmcfly 4y ago

Out of 285k, 0 people currently have FSD

toss1 4y ago

Tesla started offering on Oct. 19, 2016 a "Full self-driving capability" option package requiring a $5,000 Enhanced Autopilot feature as well as a $3,000 Full Self-Driving Capability feature [0]. The "FSD" package now costs over $15,000. Moreover, the "FSD" option cannot always be transferred to the buyer when you sell the car [1]. According to this article, 285,000 people have purchased it. Yet "Full Self-Driving" is nowhere near delivering anything like it's promise, many say it is not worth the price [2], and this failure is currently under several federal investigations. It's been 2263 days since the "FSD" introduction. That amounts to 125.9 FSD sales per day, or about 12.5/ hour (in 10 hour work days), or one sale every 4.8 minutes. P. T. Barnum is credited with saying: "There's a sucker born every minute" Tesla is doing an excellent job of validating* P. T. Barnum's claim. [0] https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/timeline-of-tesla-self-driving-aspirations-a9686689375/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/timeline-... [1] https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/does-full-self-driving-fsd-transfer-when-you-sell-a-tesla/ https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/does-full-self-driving-f... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/07/business/tesla-fsd-price-increase/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/07/business/tesla-fsd-price-incr... [*] while one sale per 4.8 minutes is greater than 1/min, we do need to consider that most suckers cannot afford, and are not in the market for, a premium car such as a Tesla.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
> Tesla is doing an excellent job of validating* P. T. Barnum's claim. And an excellent job of showing how useless the FTC is.
- TheDesolate0 4y ago
  [dead]

bogomipz 4y ago

I was reading through the comments on the electrek.co post and was struck by this particular comment: >"I paid $3K US, well before the FSD cost skyrocketed. While taking a cross-country drive in my 2018 Model 3 last August through October, with multiple terrifying phantom braking and autosteer (avoiding nonexistent objects in the roadway) incidents, I tried to get my beta removed, but was told it is not possible. “Just turn it off on your screen”, but that completely removed autopilot and adaptive cruise, so I found all I could do was turn off one action, but phantom braking and autosteer failures continued." Can anyone confirm if this is still the case? Is there any kind of warning Tesla gives when ordering this package that it's impossible to remove once enabled? What would be the technical reason it couldn't be disabled once enabled? This seems awful.

cypress66 4y ago
Fsd beta has only been available since late 2020 (and to a tiny group). So I don't know what's he talking about.
- bogomipz 4y ago
  FSD was offered as an upgrade to EA(Enhanced Autopilot) in 2016.[1] The driver in the comment explained that he has a 2018 model and he was discussing his experience with FSD on a road trip that occurred in August through October of this year. >"Enhanced Autopilot(EA) was announced later in 2016 as an extra-cost option that used a new hardware suite developed by Tesla; the key distinguishing feature for EA, "Navigate on Autopilot", which uses the new hardware suite to guide the vehicle on controlled-access roads, from on-ramp to off-ramp, was delayed until 2018. At the same time that EA was introduced, Tesla also offered Full Self-Driving(FSD) as an upgrade option to EA in 2016, which would extend machine-guided driving capabilities to local roads.[21] FSD beta testing started in October 2020."[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot

TheDesolate0 4y ago

[dead]

rhaway84773 4y ago

Basically a bunch of people donated nearly $3Bn to Tesla so Tesla could track their data even more intrusively. Nice.

more_corn 4y ago

That’s a lot of refunds owed.

Gordonjcp 4y ago

If you don't like driving, why are you buying a car?

bandyaboot 4y ago
Well this is quite an interesting take. I don’t buy a screw driver because I enjoy turning screws. In fact, I’ve invested significantly more money to buy a battery powered version that does the turning of the screws for me.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  Okay, I don't see why that's comparable. If you don't like driving a car, go by bus.
  - bandyaboot 4y ago
    Well it would seem that for a lot of people, the convenience of having a car to take them exactly where they want to go, exactly when they want to go there outweighs the benefit of not having to drive when using public transit.