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I don't know if there a better argument in the book for why you shouldn't lie but the one mentioned in the article in kinda weak. > against lying? The answer:
by gryn 4y ago
I don't know if there a better argument in the book for why you shouldn't lie but the one mentioned in the article in kinda weak.
> against lying? The answer: a simple egalitarianism. You can’t see any reason why you are special, why you are different from all the rest of mankind.
This wouldn't convince people not to lie. In fact I'd say most people find themselves special in some matter if only for the fact that they get to experience their own life constantly while merely knowing about other people's life even when interacting with them.
- NhanH 4y agoThis argument (in the article) also leaves space for some kind of an is/ ought argument as well. No one should be special, but may be it was luck of the dice or some reasons that someone is special. And because I believe I am special, I can break the rule. This doesn’t resolve that line of thinking.
- putzdown 4y agoYes. There’s also a temporal axis to this: maybe I’m not special in general, but this particular moment, this situation is special.
- ImHereToVote 4y agoWhy is it obvious that only special people can break rules? Why can't ordinary and plain people also do so?
- NhanH 4y agoMy statement was descriptive, not normative. I was describing a common justification how people act when they break rule (I break this due to …). I didn’t mean to discuss whether the justification makes any sense by itself
- LightG 4y agoBecause of the power dynamic. People are suckers for it.
- vba616 4y agoIf, life being temporary, and no afterlife being apparent, there is nothing to be gained from good or evil in the end, why not refrain from violating your conscience just because you can?
- ImHereToVote 4y agoBecause a strained conscience isn't the only sort of suffering one gets to experience.
- vba616 4y agoI don't know why you would think it is or think I think it is. "Why not refrain from violating your conscience" implicitly is in the context of having an opportunity for a choice, and being in immediate physical pain is not having a free choice, wherever you may draw the line.
- headsoup 4y agoBecause it is not just about you. What of a white lie to protect the feelings of a loved one, lying to tell someone who is about to die something good, a lie to hopefully escape punishment? People do it all the time balancing their conscience with the weight of consequences and implications. We're complicated.
- vba616 4y ago>What of a white lie to protect the feelings of a loved one, lying to tell someone who is about to die something good If you choose to do that, it might be the right thing, but it also might be the most monstrous thing you ever did, and nobody will ever tell you because it's not socially acceptable. Some (but not all) doctors will falsely tell a terminal cancer patient she is recovering and not tell anyone this is a "white lie". A doctor that does that may never get any feedback on how horrific it can be to be deceived like that. Some other doctor is honest, and nobody has time to educate the younger man, he may change eventually. Conscience is a shortcut to relative peace of mind when you can't pretend it's possible to analyze a situation fully or satisfy everyone. Oliver Cromwell once said (and never mind the context): "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, to think it possible you may be mistaken"... And from Maus: "Yes, life always takes the side of life, and somehow the victims are blamed..."
- akomtu 4y agoLying encumbers your mind with false thoughts. When such thoughts reach a critical mass, they completely obscure the reality and you can no longer tell what's true and what's false. It's like drawing on your glasses with a black marker. Saying any lie, even the most innocent, requires you to create a thought, and that thought is going to stay for long time.
- moloch-hai 4y agoPublic lying has turned out well for Elon Musk. It is really up to the rest of us to make public lying turn out less well.
- LightG 4y agoAgreed. That's because of the power dynamic. People are suckers for it. If most of us regularly lie at work or with our partners, we get sacked.
- headsoup 4y agoAnd all of the other powerful and influential business and political figures? Unless Elon is some kind of special new liar?
- ImHereToVote 4y agoOnly those in power that aren't part of the neo-liberal order are liars. Everybody knows that.
- jjj123 4y agoYou think the world’s richest man isn’t part of the neoliberal elite?
- ImHereToVote 4y agoI think he has been outcast from the in group for showing that Twitter was essentially ran by the FBI.
- moloch-hai 4y agoElon is a bigger and more public liar than people are used to. It seems hard to believe such big lies could be got away with, so are believed. More usually, the biggest liars are more vague about what and when to expect any supposed benefit if you back them. Thus, "keep out illegals", "trickle-down prosperity", "keep brown-skinned people away". How these would be benefits, if delivered, is carefully not explained.
- rixed 4y agoAgreed. My opinion is that most person learn during childhood that relying on mere lies alone just does not work that well. We are better lie detectors than we are good liers.
- headsoup 4y agoThat seems a very poor argument. I think the simplest one is that lying takes more energy and effort to support, the truth takes none.
- ImHereToVote 4y agoThis is only true if the choices you have to make have trivial consequences.
- headsoup 4y agoIt's the simplest one, not the easiest one
- Thiez 4y agoSpoken like someone who has never been asked whether a dress makes someones butt look big. There are plenty of situations where lying is considerably easier in both the short and the long term than telling the truth. In addition, in our society lying is not just accepted but expected and encouraged in certain situations.
- headsoup 4y agoUntil her best friend says it does and she turns to you asking why you lied?...