5 ms·

> Powerful forces are pushing computing toward vast, brittle, energy-hungry systems that are incomprehensible even to their own makers; This captures how I fee

> Powerful forces are pushing computing toward vast, brittle, energy-hungry systems that are incomprehensible even to their own makers; This captures how I feel which is why I'm inventing a new stack.

rollcat 4y ago
The idea of Uxn, or some other minimalistic computing platform really scratches my itch, but I'm afraid anything that can't handle modern TLS is pretty much DOA - getting online is 95% of the reason why you'd want to own a computer, and while there are certainly a lot of fun things to do with an air-gapped device, computing shouldn't end at "just fun".
- kragen 4y ago
  i think you can implement a working subset of modern tls in a few thousand lines of code
  - nuc1e0n 4y ago
    Have you heard of wolfssl? But if your idea of reliabilty is network connected computers that must never fail fate has bad news coming for you. Better to engineer systems with the certain expectation everything fails at some point. So air gapped is the way to go!
  - rollcat 4y ago
    It's not about the simplicity, it's about the CPU power required to keep the encrypted traffic flowing. I have a G4 TiBook for example (an insanely powerful machine, 20 years ago), and I can sense it struggle.
    - anthk 4y ago
      A forked up Dillo and Links+ would run perfectly well enough with mbedtls, at least under OpenBSD.
      - rollcat 4y ago
        I don't think you can run Dillo in 64kb of RAM (see Uxn specs: https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/uxn.html https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/uxn.html). It would be interesting to see if e.g. a GBA running Uxn could handle TLS at reasonable throughput.
        anthk 4y ago
        On the G4 I meant. OpenBSD has a macppc port.
        rollcat 4y ago
        Oh that's correct, there's a bit too many contexts in this thread and I confused myself. Sorry, my bad. You're right, OpenBSD with something like Dillo or NetSurf might go a very long way. I'm not sure though if I want to run OpenBSD on the TiBook, I have plenty of more powerful hardware for that, and running a modern, portable OS removes from the flavor of such retro hardware - e.g. it's the most modern/powerful laptop that can still run OS9. There still are people who maintain and write new software for the classic Macs (one of them, jcs, being an OpenBSD developer). I'll have to explore my options more thoroughly here, but either way, that machine struggles even with modern SSH, something you're used to being instant.
        anthk 4y ago
        Ah ofc, Clazilla, SSH stacks and stuff for System6. But there isn't a lot more. OpenBSD can run scummvm, mplayer, openttd...
    - kragen 4y ago
      not because of tls, do the math
- NobleData 4y ago
  I think there's a niche market to be had for offline/air-gapped computers, not only for security but for independent operability. If you're in BFE and have solar-powered computers running your AC you want something efficient and reliable, and everything in the hardware and software purpose-built.
  - rollcat 4y ago
    This space is already saturated by a product class called a microcontroller. I'm specifically thinking personal/general purpose computing.
- RodgerTheGreat 4y ago
  In my mind, this is more of a problem with TLS than it is a problem with older, slower, or simpler computers. Encypted, complex, and/or fast-churning protocols are sold as delivering security and efficiency, but in practice, for many applications, they primarily function as a ratchet to artificially induce obsolescence.
  - robinsonb5 4y ago
    This. I tried spinning up a Win2k VM a few months back and was surprised to find that the web's now basically off limits to Win2K because of TLS. What's even more surprising is that the same barrier doesn't keep an Amiga[1] off the web. (Javascript is another matter, of course!) [1] https://github.com/jens-maus/amissl https://github.com/jens-maus/amissl
    - anthk 4y ago
      Install Legacy Update and Retrozilla.
      - robinsonb5 4y ago
        Thanks, I'll check those out.
  - rollcat 4y ago
    Well the alternatives are: to stay offline, proxy through a more powerful relay (e.g. with WireGuard, seems to be able to run on an ESP32, but that's just moving the problem around), or... convince the world that the most widely deployed encryption protocol needs radical change?
  - NoGravitas 4y ago
    The main practical solution seems to be to use a http-to-https proxy. Inspired by nostalgia and stuff retrocomputing people were doing on the fediverse, I recently spun up a MacOS 8.1 VM. Getting online basically took installing such a proxy on the host, since there's no browser with modern TLS that will run on a 68040 Mac.
- hayley-patton 4y ago
  A two-magnitude slowdown by being too simple to make compilation/any form of not-naive interpretation possible, by preventing code from self-clobbering, isn't a great start either. The approach there is to write a faster "device" in the host language, which doesn't help portability.
- Buffout 4y ago
  Getting online is not the true purpose of owning computer. You don't need TLS. you kind of already have all sorts of computers that can handle TLS, so why build another one? UXN was developed out of necessity , because some software stopped working in certain environments. AFAIK author is living on a boat. and doesn't have unlimited electricity and internet access. Their electricity supply depends on weather. When you look at it like that, information security is largely first world country problem. whilst 3rd world country is happy if it has internet and electricity at all.
kragen 4y ago
what is your new stack like how far along are you
- mathgladiator 4y ago
  My stack is an alternative to how the cloud works. I'm in the phase of building new client runtime for a single game. https://www.adama-platform.com/ https://www.adama-platform.com/
  - kragen 4y ago
    sounds interesting (an asynchronous relational data model with orthogonal persistence and transaction logging and rewind?) but also it looks like you're not throwing out amd64, linux, tls, html, tcp/ip, js, or even the dom, just maybe postgres i like the idea 'With Adama, the transactional boundary is a single message. A single message from a person enters and a single data differential is emitted [to the log]' i do think this new kind of data store needs its own language; though it could conceivably be a dialect of an existing language, very few languages are fundamentally relational, and those that are (prolog, say) are poorly suited to reactive systems (in pnueli and harel's term — as opposed to transformational)
    - mathgladiator 4y ago
      I'm starting in the middle for productivity reasons, and a thorn in my side is k8s and microservice shenanigans. The data store has its own language which is how it got started, and my vision is to build complex digital products with simple infrastructure. For HTML/JS/DOM, I am accepting it into my heart as I can ship product on those technologies. But, I do believe in fixing them. For example, I believe we can fix HTML with some reactive extensions which I have started. https://book.adama-platform.com/rxhtml/ref.html https://book.adama-platform.com/rxhtml/ref.html The experiment here is to have a way to build robust apps with Js skills. For the DOM, I've building a new scene tree called roslin. https://github.com/mathgladiator/roslin https://github.com/mathgladiator/roslin I'm still playing with it as I build the WYSIWYG tooling to feed it. However, a new DOM is all fun and good until you get to text entry. My base level is Linux with JVM, but I believe the base can be radically simplified. For now, until I can drive revenue these are hypothetical. It's a lot of work just to make an online board game... the hardest way possible.

rollcat 4y ago

The idea of Uxn, or some other minimalistic computing platform really scratches my itch, but I'm afraid anything that can't handle modern TLS is pretty much DOA - getting online is 95% of the reason why you'd want to own a computer, and while there are certainly a lot of fun things to do with an air-gapped device, computing shouldn't end at "just fun".

kragen 4y ago
i think you can implement a working subset of modern tls in a few thousand lines of code
- nuc1e0n 4y ago
  Have you heard of wolfssl? But if your idea of reliabilty is network connected computers that must never fail fate has bad news coming for you. Better to engineer systems with the certain expectation everything fails at some point. So air gapped is the way to go!
- rollcat 4y ago
  It's not about the simplicity, it's about the CPU power required to keep the encrypted traffic flowing. I have a G4 TiBook for example (an insanely powerful machine, 20 years ago), and I can sense it struggle.
  - anthk 4y ago
    A forked up Dillo and Links+ would run perfectly well enough with mbedtls, at least under OpenBSD.
    - rollcat 4y ago
      I don't think you can run Dillo in 64kb of RAM (see Uxn specs: https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/uxn.html https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/uxn.html). It would be interesting to see if e.g. a GBA running Uxn could handle TLS at reasonable throughput.
      - anthk 4y ago
        On the G4 I meant. OpenBSD has a macppc port.
        rollcat 4y ago
        Oh that's correct, there's a bit too many contexts in this thread and I confused myself. Sorry, my bad. You're right, OpenBSD with something like Dillo or NetSurf might go a very long way. I'm not sure though if I want to run OpenBSD on the TiBook, I have plenty of more powerful hardware for that, and running a modern, portable OS removes from the flavor of such retro hardware - e.g. it's the most modern/powerful laptop that can still run OS9. There still are people who maintain and write new software for the classic Macs (one of them, jcs, being an OpenBSD developer). I'll have to explore my options more thoroughly here, but either way, that machine struggles even with modern SSH, something you're used to being instant.
        anthk 4y ago
        Ah ofc, Clazilla, SSH stacks and stuff for System6. But there isn't a lot more. OpenBSD can run scummvm, mplayer, openttd...
  - kragen 4y ago
    not because of tls, do the math
NobleData 4y ago
I think there's a niche market to be had for offline/air-gapped computers, not only for security but for independent operability. If you're in BFE and have solar-powered computers running your AC you want something efficient and reliable, and everything in the hardware and software purpose-built.
- rollcat 4y ago
  This space is already saturated by a product class called a microcontroller. I'm specifically thinking personal/general purpose computing.
RodgerTheGreat 4y ago
In my mind, this is more of a problem with TLS than it is a problem with older, slower, or simpler computers. Encypted, complex, and/or fast-churning protocols are sold as delivering security and efficiency, but in practice, for many applications, they primarily function as a ratchet to artificially induce obsolescence.
- robinsonb5 4y ago
  This. I tried spinning up a Win2k VM a few months back and was surprised to find that the web's now basically off limits to Win2K because of TLS. What's even more surprising is that the same barrier doesn't keep an Amiga[1] off the web. (Javascript is another matter, of course!) [1] https://github.com/jens-maus/amissl https://github.com/jens-maus/amissl
  - anthk 4y ago
    Install Legacy Update and Retrozilla.
    - robinsonb5 4y ago
      Thanks, I'll check those out.
- rollcat 4y ago
  Well the alternatives are: to stay offline, proxy through a more powerful relay (e.g. with WireGuard, seems to be able to run on an ESP32, but that's just moving the problem around), or... convince the world that the most widely deployed encryption protocol needs radical change?
- NoGravitas 4y ago
  The main practical solution seems to be to use a http-to-https proxy. Inspired by nostalgia and stuff retrocomputing people were doing on the fediverse, I recently spun up a MacOS 8.1 VM. Getting online basically took installing such a proxy on the host, since there's no browser with modern TLS that will run on a 68040 Mac.
hayley-patton 4y ago
A two-magnitude slowdown by being too simple to make compilation/any form of not-naive interpretation possible, by preventing code from self-clobbering, isn't a great start either. The approach there is to write a faster "device" in the host language, which doesn't help portability.
Buffout 4y ago
Getting online is not the true purpose of owning computer. You don't need TLS. you kind of already have all sorts of computers that can handle TLS, so why build another one? UXN was developed out of necessity , because some software stopped working in certain environments. AFAIK author is living on a boat. and doesn't have unlimited electricity and internet access. Their electricity supply depends on weather. When you look at it like that, information security is largely first world country problem. whilst 3rd world country is happy if it has internet and electricity at all.

kragen 4y ago

what is your new stack like how far along are you

mathgladiator 4y ago
My stack is an alternative to how the cloud works. I'm in the phase of building new client runtime for a single game. https://www.adama-platform.com/ https://www.adama-platform.com/
- kragen 4y ago
  sounds interesting (an asynchronous relational data model with orthogonal persistence and transaction logging and rewind?) but also it looks like you're not throwing out amd64, linux, tls, html, tcp/ip, js, or even the dom, just maybe postgres i like the idea 'With Adama, the transactional boundary is a single message. A single message from a person enters and a single data differential is emitted [to the log]' i do think this new kind of data store needs its own language; though it could conceivably be a dialect of an existing language, very few languages are fundamentally relational, and those that are (prolog, say) are poorly suited to reactive systems (in pnueli and harel's term — as opposed to transformational)
  - mathgladiator 4y ago
    I'm starting in the middle for productivity reasons, and a thorn in my side is k8s and microservice shenanigans. The data store has its own language which is how it got started, and my vision is to build complex digital products with simple infrastructure. For HTML/JS/DOM, I am accepting it into my heart as I can ship product on those technologies. But, I do believe in fixing them. For example, I believe we can fix HTML with some reactive extensions which I have started. https://book.adama-platform.com/rxhtml/ref.html https://book.adama-platform.com/rxhtml/ref.html The experiment here is to have a way to build robust apps with Js skills. For the DOM, I've building a new scene tree called roslin. https://github.com/mathgladiator/roslin https://github.com/mathgladiator/roslin I'm still playing with it as I build the WYSIWYG tooling to feed it. However, a new DOM is all fun and good until you get to text entry. My base level is Linux with JVM, but I believe the base can be radically simplified. For now, until I can drive revenue these are hypothetical. It's a lot of work just to make an online board game... the hardest way possible.