7 ms·

Tesla driver falls asleep – Autopilot ignores police and continues driving

53 points by theCrowing 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
metadat 4y ago
English translation: https://www-sueddeutsche-de.translate.goog/bayern/tesla-bamberg-polizei-autopilot-autobahn-strafe-1.5723593?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en https://www-sueddeutsche-de.translate.goog/bayern/tesla-bamb...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
avereveard 4y ago
Oh look the exact scenario musk promised their car would handle to obtain the approval for testing their system on public roads -Wow tesla bag holders are rabid this season.
- gfodor 4y ago
  Which scenario?
- jws 4y ago
  "The driver had apparently tricked the car's safety systems. … In the footwell of the car, the officers found what is known as a steering wheel weight … A preliminary investigation into the criminal offense of endangering road traffic was initiated against the Tesla driver." Sounds more like the driver defeated the safety systems which stop the vehicle if the driver is incapacitated.
  - avereveard 4y ago
    Good to know that a steering wheel weight could defeat the face camera https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/28/tesla-starts-using-cabin-cameras-for-driver-monitoring.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/28/tesla-starts-using-cabin-cam...
afrcnc 4y ago
Just like Elon running Twitter... the metaphor is spectacular here!
dawnerd 4y ago
Why would autopilot, the normal driver assist all of the cars have, would respond to police? No where is that advertised as a standard feature. Now, the car should have eventually stopped after multiple failed driver inputs. But the part about ignoring police is a bit silly to hit on. Edit: Newer software versions do detect wheel weights as quite a few people have reported on the various Tesla forums. Edit 2: They didn't crash. That's the real story here.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  In most jurisdictions, you have a legal obligation to pull over when emergency vehicles are operating their sirens. Perhaps they need to pull you over, or perhaps perhaps they just need you out of the way so they can get to some other emergency. If you are selling a vehicle with autopilot/self-driving, then it needs to respond to common driving situations like emergency vehicles. I am well aware the driver was on drugs and deliberately defeated the safety mechanism. That is not relevant. If s/he had a heart attack or stroke and was slumped over the wheel, the vehicle should still be able to stop in response to emergency vehicles. Sirens and emergency lights are easy to detect, by design.
  - ajross 4y ago
    > If s/he had a heart attack or stroke and was slumped over the wheel, the vehicle should still be able to stop in response to emergency vehicles It should? Does your car do this? Do any cars do this? Cars don't do this. Traditionally, cars with passed-out drivers crash and kill people. Teslas don't. Are you saying you'd prefer they crash and kill people if they can't detect emergency commands from other vehicles?
    - anigbrowl 4y ago
      I think you understand full well that this was offered in the context of self-driving cars, and that you did not in fact need it spelled out for you again.
      - 4y ago
pempem 4y ago
I'm left questioning where the regulators are. This keeps happening and its tiresome. Put out a product that's ready or gasp don't put it out yet.
- pempem 4y ago
  Hm...seems controversial however: Payments: requires KYC Retail: requires the delivery of a product and some truth to the product There are performance metrics put out for vehicles and they are generally agreed upon after accidents have already occurred meaning people were already injured or killed. If this was a Toyota or a different make of car, the statement would be the same.
tiahura 4y ago
[flagged]
jve 4y ago
I mean, police, horns and that guy is still sleeping? Maybe some health issue or what? How can someone have such a deep sleep in a car? Anyways, from the news it appears that the car didn't crash. So this is actually positive news. What would have happened if that guy did fall asleep (I mean, really deep sleep) on a basic car....
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Via Google Translate: > When the police wanted to stop and check the man, his Tesla just kept driving. "He didn't respond to stop signals or repeated horns from the officers," police said. The driver was leaning in the seat with his eyes closed and his hands were not on the steering wheel. "After about 15 minutes, the man finally woke up and followed the instructions of the police. During the check, he showed typical drug failure symptoms," the statement continues.
- joshuanapoli 4y ago
  drug abuse and intentional defeat of the hands-on-wheel safety check
RektBoy 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Brigand 4y ago
  Shocking, does this happen regularly in Germany? Is this something you experienced yourself?
matheweis 4y ago
This is not the story that the headline makes it out to be: > After about 15 minutes, the man finally woke up .. he showed typical drug failure symptoms > the officers found what is known as a steering wheel weight, which is used to .. the car the illusion that your hands are on the wheel
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- r_hoods_ghost 4y ago
  It is exactly the story that the headline makes out. The driver fell asleep. The autopilot didnt respond to signals from the police to pull over. This is because it doesn't have that feature. But since it's on the road and advertised as self driving, it really should have this feature because drivers will try to get around whatever protections manufacturers put in place and fall asleep because they're on drugs, have a medical condition or are just arseholes.
  - matheweis 4y ago
    The autopilot is already advertised as having the ability to pull over safely if the driver falls asleep. Allegedly the driver intentionally overrode the safety features that would have allowed it to do this. > it really should have this feature because drivers will try to get around whatever protections manufacturers put in place .. no, because that could include safety features that will give the police control over the vehicle.
  - simondotau 4y ago
    Autopilot is not advertised as self driving.
    - trobertson 4y ago
      "Full Self Driving"
      - 4y ago
jchw 4y ago
I suspect a lot of commenters will miss this part, so it's probably good to emphasize it. > In the footwell of the car, the officers found what is known as a steering wheel weight, which is used to trick the security systems. It attaches to the steering wheel and gives the car the illusion that your hands are on the wheel. This seems pretty clear-cut, and Autopilot's capabilities and other safeguards (or lack therefore of) are irrelevant. The driver was mitigating safety features. It'd be pretty much the same story with adaptive cruise control and lane-keep assist. At the end of the day, there's only so much you can do to stop someone from shooting themselves in the foot. Once you have to deal with drivers mitigating the driver awareness detection, it's probably a lost cause.
- nichochar 4y ago
  Only solution is to regulate the companies. Musk is using his army of cultish followers to do QA with other people's lives. In my opinion this should be highly illegal, and prosecuted. Imagine your kid gets killed by a Tesla influencer trying to prove that autopilot is everything Elon promised them. [disclaimer] i worked for a while at Cruise, and that company cares deeply about security and works hard with the government to move regulation forward as we move the technology forward.
  - jchw 4y ago
    > Only solution is to regulate the companies. Musk is using his army of cultish followers to do QA with other people's lives. In my opinion this should be highly illegal, and prosecuted. In this case, relevant to this news story, what do you think should be regulated? I agree driver assistance systems, especially ones like Autopilot that are clearly not near human levels of driving proficiency, should prevent operation from drivers that are not aware. It seems such measures were taken, but they were defeated intentionally. > Imagine your kid gets killed by a Tesla influencer trying to prove that autopilot is everything Elon promised them. I suppose that would make me rather upset, but I'm struggling to make the connection to this news story. It doesn't seem to talk about the driver in question or their intent. I'd had guessed it was less about being a Tesla fan and more about being able to sleep while driving.
- 4y ago
kylecazar 4y ago
So this guy may have been high, but I've heard of other drivers falling asleep and relying on self driving features. It is a long, long time before my body would even physically allow me to fall asleep when I'm in the driver's seat. Maybe it's just me, I just wouldn't be able to even if I tried.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Happened to me once, after a really long day, on a German autobahn of all places. Luckily, it was at night without any traffic. I driffted all the way from the left lane into the barrier besides the emergency lane on the right side, skipped three lanes in total doing it. Scary as fuck, if it wasn't for the barrier I would have hit the trees. Even luckier, there wasn't anything else there at that moment as I would have hit anything and everything. Ever since, I am super concious when I feel tired and sit behind the wheel.
  - eska 4y ago
    How about you stop driving when you’re tired instead of risking other people’s lives? You could’ve killed many people!
    - Pigalowda 4y ago
      From parent comment: “Even luckier, there wasn't anything else there at that moment as I would have hit anything and everything. Ever since, I am super concious when I feel tired and sit behind the wheel.”
  - kylecazar 4y ago
    Wow, you're lucky! It happened to my mother as well, driving home from a long day when she was directing a performing arts center here in NY -- so I understand it isn't always a choice, and this was before Uber. She drifted and took out the guardrail on the old Tappan Zee bridge (around 11PM on a weekday, little traffic as well). Got a bill for it from the state -- I'm just glad she didn't make it all the way through, would have been quite a plunge (and I wouldn't exist). Stay safe!
renewiltord 4y ago
Wow, a drug user fell asleep at the wheel and the car saved his life and probably other road users by keeping the vehicle operating safely until he woke up? Modern technology is remarkable!
- hef19898 4y ago
  Well, other brands have sensors waking the driver. Ideally, the car would have stopped...
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    My Subaru Forester 2018 would drive off the road, probably crashing into other cars as it does so. If I fell asleep in a drug haze, I would likely just die, even in a modern Subaru. It emits a beep-beep-beep and then switches to manual drive.
hosh 4y ago
I’ve been revisiting Promise Theory (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_theory) and it is interesting to analyze this with PT: 1. Promises are not obligations 2. Promises are best-effort intentions made by autonomous agents, and made known to an audience 3. Assessment of how agents keep promises is local to the observer 4. Only autonomous agents can make promises. If an agent is not capable of making promises, it is not autonomous. 5. Non-autonomous machines and systems are proxies for humans making and keeping promises with each other 6. Tesla’s driver assist technology is a proxy for promise-making humans 7. Tesla, the company, composed of humans, makes certain promises on the safety properties of their cars and driver assist 8. Human drivers are making promises to other drivers, as well as the governing body, in regards to operating the vehicle (with penalties defined by obligations defined by the governing body) 9. Since the driver assist tech is not fully autonomous, it is a proxy for the human driver’s promises, as well as Tesla 10. Therefore, a human driver falling asleep is breaking his promises regarding the operation of the vehicle 11. But Tesla has also made promises on the _autonomy_ of the vehicle. 12. It isn’t so much that the promise (the intention) is false, but that Tesla has not been keeping its promises regarding safety 13. Contrast this Waymo, who spent a lot of effort to make and keep promises about safety, including documenting a framework to work with first responders.
- schappim 4y ago
  Made readable: Promise Theory[0] is an interesting way to analyze how autonomous agents make and keep promises. It's interesting to think about how this applies to Tesla's driver assist technology. While the driver assist is not fully autonomous, it is still a proxy for the human driver's promises, as well as Tesla's. For example, when a human driver falls asleep, they are breaking the promises they have made regarding the operation of the vehicle. Contrast this to Waymo, who have taken extra steps to make and keep promises about safety, including having a framework to work with first responders. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_theory
  - hosh 4y ago
    I have to admire this rewrite. I noticed a list of books on writing in your comment history. Was this how you refined your writing?
Pigalowda 4y ago
After about 15 minutes, the man finally woke up and followed the instructions of the police. During the check, he showed typical drug failure symptoms. Well, I imagine passing out and driving usually gets people in a more dangerous situation such as a car accident.
hristov 4y ago
This post should have [German] after it. By the way, I am not sure exactly what happened (I do not speak German) but if the police are worried that a sleeping driver is using autopilot they can drive up with a police car in front of it and gently slow down to a stop in front of it. The autopilot should slow down as well.
berryg 4y ago
It should be quite easy to stop a Tesla on Autopilot. You just drive in front of it and you slow down. And the Tesla behind you slows down automatically. Just like in a traffic jam. Autopilot is not switching lanes on itself.
steele 4y ago
ITT TSLA shareholders
MrRiddle 4y ago
[dead]

53 points by theCrowing 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

English translation: https://www-sueddeutsche-de.translate.goog/bayern/tesla-bamberg-polizei-autopilot-autobahn-strafe-1.5723593?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en https://www-sueddeutsche-de.translate.goog/bayern/tesla-bamb...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

avereveard 4y ago

Oh look the exact scenario musk promised their car would handle to obtain the approval for testing their system on public roads -Wow tesla bag holders are rabid this season.

gfodor 4y ago
Which scenario?
jws 4y ago
"The driver had apparently tricked the car's safety systems. … In the footwell of the car, the officers found what is known as a steering wheel weight … A preliminary investigation into the criminal offense of endangering road traffic was initiated against the Tesla driver." Sounds more like the driver defeated the safety systems which stop the vehicle if the driver is incapacitated.
- avereveard 4y ago
  Good to know that a steering wheel weight could defeat the face camera https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/28/tesla-starts-using-cabin-cameras-for-driver-monitoring.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/28/tesla-starts-using-cabin-cam...

afrcnc 4y ago

Just like Elon running Twitter... the metaphor is spectacular here!

dawnerd 4y ago

Why would autopilot, the normal driver assist all of the cars have, would respond to police? No where is that advertised as a standard feature. Now, the car should have eventually stopped after multiple failed driver inputs. But the part about ignoring police is a bit silly to hit on. Edit: Newer software versions do detect wheel weights as quite a few people have reported on the various Tesla forums. Edit 2: They didn't crash. That's the real story here.

anigbrowl 4y ago
In most jurisdictions, you have a legal obligation to pull over when emergency vehicles are operating their sirens. Perhaps they need to pull you over, or perhaps perhaps they just need you out of the way so they can get to some other emergency. If you are selling a vehicle with autopilot/self-driving, then it needs to respond to common driving situations like emergency vehicles. I am well aware the driver was on drugs and deliberately defeated the safety mechanism. That is not relevant. If s/he had a heart attack or stroke and was slumped over the wheel, the vehicle should still be able to stop in response to emergency vehicles. Sirens and emergency lights are easy to detect, by design.
- ajross 4y ago
  > If s/he had a heart attack or stroke and was slumped over the wheel, the vehicle should still be able to stop in response to emergency vehicles It should? Does your car do this? Do any cars do this? Cars don't do this. Traditionally, cars with passed-out drivers crash and kill people. Teslas don't. Are you saying you'd prefer they crash and kill people if they can't detect emergency commands from other vehicles?
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    I think you understand full well that this was offered in the context of self-driving cars, and that you did not in fact need it spelled out for you again.
    - 4y ago

pempem 4y ago

I'm left questioning where the regulators are. This keeps happening and its tiresome. Put out a product that's ready or gasp don't put it out yet.

pempem 4y ago
Hm...seems controversial however: Payments: requires KYC Retail: requires the delivery of a product and some truth to the product There are performance metrics put out for vehicles and they are generally agreed upon after accidents have already occurred meaning people were already injured or killed. If this was a Toyota or a different make of car, the statement would be the same.

tiahura 4y ago

[flagged]

jve 4y ago

I mean, police, horns and that guy is still sleeping? Maybe some health issue or what? How can someone have such a deep sleep in a car? Anyways, from the news it appears that the car didn't crash. So this is actually positive news. What would have happened if that guy did fall asleep (I mean, really deep sleep) on a basic car....

ceejayoz 4y ago
Via Google Translate: > When the police wanted to stop and check the man, his Tesla just kept driving. "He didn't respond to stop signals or repeated horns from the officers," police said. The driver was leaning in the seat with his eyes closed and his hands were not on the steering wheel. "After about 15 minutes, the man finally woke up and followed the instructions of the police. During the check, he showed typical drug failure symptoms," the statement continues.
joshuanapoli 4y ago
drug abuse and intentional defeat of the hands-on-wheel safety check

RektBoy 4y ago

[flagged]

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Brigand 4y ago
Shocking, does this happen regularly in Germany? Is this something you experienced yourself?

matheweis 4y ago

This is not the story that the headline makes it out to be: > After about 15 minutes, the man finally woke up .. he showed typical drug failure symptoms > the officers found what is known as a steering wheel weight, which is used to .. the car the illusion that your hands are on the wheel

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
r_hoods_ghost 4y ago
It is exactly the story that the headline makes out. The driver fell asleep. The autopilot didnt respond to signals from the police to pull over. This is because it doesn't have that feature. But since it's on the road and advertised as self driving, it really should have this feature because drivers will try to get around whatever protections manufacturers put in place and fall asleep because they're on drugs, have a medical condition or are just arseholes.
- matheweis 4y ago
  The autopilot is already advertised as having the ability to pull over safely if the driver falls asleep. Allegedly the driver intentionally overrode the safety features that would have allowed it to do this. > it really should have this feature because drivers will try to get around whatever protections manufacturers put in place .. no, because that could include safety features that will give the police control over the vehicle.
- simondotau 4y ago
  Autopilot is not advertised as self driving.
  - trobertson 4y ago
    "Full Self Driving"
    - 4y ago

jchw 4y ago

I suspect a lot of commenters will miss this part, so it's probably good to emphasize it. > In the footwell of the car, the officers found what is known as a steering wheel weight, which is used to trick the security systems. It attaches to the steering wheel and gives the car the illusion that your hands are on the wheel. This seems pretty clear-cut, and Autopilot's capabilities and other safeguards (or lack therefore of) are irrelevant. The driver was mitigating safety features. It'd be pretty much the same story with adaptive cruise control and lane-keep assist. At the end of the day, there's only so much you can do to stop someone from shooting themselves in the foot. Once you have to deal with drivers mitigating the driver awareness detection, it's probably a lost cause.

nichochar 4y ago
Only solution is to regulate the companies. Musk is using his army of cultish followers to do QA with other people's lives. In my opinion this should be highly illegal, and prosecuted. Imagine your kid gets killed by a Tesla influencer trying to prove that autopilot is everything Elon promised them. [disclaimer] i worked for a while at Cruise, and that company cares deeply about security and works hard with the government to move regulation forward as we move the technology forward.
- jchw 4y ago
  > Only solution is to regulate the companies. Musk is using his army of cultish followers to do QA with other people's lives. In my opinion this should be highly illegal, and prosecuted. In this case, relevant to this news story, what do you think should be regulated? I agree driver assistance systems, especially ones like Autopilot that are clearly not near human levels of driving proficiency, should prevent operation from drivers that are not aware. It seems such measures were taken, but they were defeated intentionally. > Imagine your kid gets killed by a Tesla influencer trying to prove that autopilot is everything Elon promised them. I suppose that would make me rather upset, but I'm struggling to make the connection to this news story. It doesn't seem to talk about the driver in question or their intent. I'd had guessed it was less about being a Tesla fan and more about being able to sleep while driving.
4y ago

kylecazar 4y ago

So this guy may have been high, but I've heard of other drivers falling asleep and relying on self driving features. It is a long, long time before my body would even physically allow me to fall asleep when I'm in the driver's seat. Maybe it's just me, I just wouldn't be able to even if I tried.

hef19898 4y ago
Happened to me once, after a really long day, on a German autobahn of all places. Luckily, it was at night without any traffic. I driffted all the way from the left lane into the barrier besides the emergency lane on the right side, skipped three lanes in total doing it. Scary as fuck, if it wasn't for the barrier I would have hit the trees. Even luckier, there wasn't anything else there at that moment as I would have hit anything and everything. Ever since, I am super concious when I feel tired and sit behind the wheel.
- eska 4y ago
  How about you stop driving when you’re tired instead of risking other people’s lives? You could’ve killed many people!
  - Pigalowda 4y ago
    From parent comment: “Even luckier, there wasn't anything else there at that moment as I would have hit anything and everything. Ever since, I am super concious when I feel tired and sit behind the wheel.”
- kylecazar 4y ago
  Wow, you're lucky! It happened to my mother as well, driving home from a long day when she was directing a performing arts center here in NY -- so I understand it isn't always a choice, and this was before Uber. She drifted and took out the guardrail on the old Tappan Zee bridge (around 11PM on a weekday, little traffic as well). Got a bill for it from the state -- I'm just glad she didn't make it all the way through, would have been quite a plunge (and I wouldn't exist). Stay safe!

renewiltord 4y ago

Wow, a drug user fell asleep at the wheel and the car saved his life and probably other road users by keeping the vehicle operating safely until he woke up? Modern technology is remarkable!

hef19898 4y ago
Well, other brands have sensors waking the driver. Ideally, the car would have stopped...
- renewiltord 4y ago
  My Subaru Forester 2018 would drive off the road, probably crashing into other cars as it does so. If I fell asleep in a drug haze, I would likely just die, even in a modern Subaru. It emits a beep-beep-beep and then switches to manual drive.

hosh 4y ago

I’ve been revisiting Promise Theory (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_theory) and it is interesting to analyze this with PT: 1. Promises are not obligations 2. Promises are best-effort intentions made by autonomous agents, and made known to an audience 3. Assessment of how agents keep promises is local to the observer 4. Only autonomous agents can make promises. If an agent is not capable of making promises, it is not autonomous. 5. Non-autonomous machines and systems are proxies for humans making and keeping promises with each other 6. Tesla’s driver assist technology is a proxy for promise-making humans 7. Tesla, the company, composed of humans, makes certain promises on the safety properties of their cars and driver assist 8. Human drivers are making promises to other drivers, as well as the governing body, in regards to operating the vehicle (with penalties defined by obligations defined by the governing body) 9. Since the driver assist tech is not fully autonomous, it is a proxy for the human driver’s promises, as well as Tesla 10. Therefore, a human driver falling asleep is breaking his promises regarding the operation of the vehicle 11. But Tesla has also made promises on the _autonomy_ of the vehicle. 12. It isn’t so much that the promise (the intention) is false, but that Tesla has not been keeping its promises regarding safety 13. Contrast this Waymo, who spent a lot of effort to make and keep promises about safety, including documenting a framework to work with first responders.

schappim 4y ago
Made readable: Promise Theory[0] is an interesting way to analyze how autonomous agents make and keep promises. It's interesting to think about how this applies to Tesla's driver assist technology. While the driver assist is not fully autonomous, it is still a proxy for the human driver's promises, as well as Tesla's. For example, when a human driver falls asleep, they are breaking the promises they have made regarding the operation of the vehicle. Contrast this to Waymo, who have taken extra steps to make and keep promises about safety, including having a framework to work with first responders. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_theory
- hosh 4y ago
  I have to admire this rewrite. I noticed a list of books on writing in your comment history. Was this how you refined your writing?

Pigalowda 4y ago

After about 15 minutes, the man finally woke up and followed the instructions of the police. During the check, he showed typical drug failure symptoms. Well, I imagine passing out and driving usually gets people in a more dangerous situation such as a car accident.

hristov 4y ago

This post should have [German] after it. By the way, I am not sure exactly what happened (I do not speak German) but if the police are worried that a sleeping driver is using autopilot they can drive up with a police car in front of it and gently slow down to a stop in front of it. The autopilot should slow down as well.

berryg 4y ago

It should be quite easy to stop a Tesla on Autopilot. You just drive in front of it and you slow down. And the Tesla behind you slows down automatically. Just like in a traffic jam. Autopilot is not switching lanes on itself.

steele 4y ago

ITT TSLA shareholders

MrRiddle 4y ago

[dead]