6 ms·

Having read "The Boy Who was Raised as a Dog", which goes into a fair amount of detail regarding attachment and attachment disorders, letting an infant "cry it

Having read "The Boy Who was Raised as a Dog", which goes into a fair amount of detail regarding attachment and attachment disorders, letting an infant "cry it out" strikes me as child abuse. Infants have no control over their environment, and crying is almost their only way to communicate. I'm not enthusiastic about sleep training either - the gradual, controlled removal of sleep time emotional support by the parent. I would suggest to be very conservative and cautious if you want to take that route, and as the article states, definitely not before the age of 6 months. Edit: I saw another comment which talked about "checking in" on the infant during sleep training. I think there is some middle ground I would be comfortable with after 6 months of age, where you don't rock the child to sleep for an hour, but you check in on them, gently touch them, talk to them soothingly for a little bit, and then you leave them for a little while. Come back in a little bit and briefly soothe them, and then leave again for a little while. As long as they know you are there. And you could stretch those periods out to see how the child does. But, again I would suggest to be very conservative and cautious and don't try this at too early of an age.

lars512 4y ago
The article mentions this 5y study (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22966034/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22966034/) which included a sleep training intervention at 7m, and found "no evidence of differences between intervention and control families for any outcome". It sounds like the main concern would be starting sleep training too early (sub 6 months), or using it in unusual situations where there are already attachment issues.
jjtheblunt 4y ago
Not regarding a human child, but my spouse thought leaving our rescue dog, still a youngster only a few months old, in a cage in another room overnight was somehow proper, which frankly incensed me as cruel and abusive nonsense, because it's not the way of the wild, not what any of us were evolved for. And I'd lived with and worked with rescue animals for decades, so felt strongly about this. (i put my foot down and gave her run of the house so she was soothed to be with her (generalized) family, and she's been fantastic ever since. my spouse is still indignant about her plan being abandoned, but it proved the effective and healthy choice.)
- cycrutchfield 4y ago
  Crate training is pretty normal and not sure why you feel so weird about it. Is it “the way of the wild” to keep the dog in your house?
  - zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
    Docking tails and ears is normal too. Male circumcision is normal. Locking people in cages for possessing certain plants, extracts, chemicals is normal. War and all of the murder that goes on in it is normal. Burning coal is normal. Limiting rights of women is some countries is normal.
  - illegalsmile 4y ago
    I don't get it either. Our shelter dogs were always crated overnight since they weren't allowed in the bedrooms and they would go there when it was bed time with no problem. Occasionally they'd go to their crate to take naps or seek refuge there during storms. I guess if a dog willingly going into a crate to sleep while everyone else slept is cruel and abusive I don't know what they'd think about actual abuse. Our dogs lived long happy lives. Most dogs I know have a spot that's tight and cozy, maybe even covered, that they go to; crate or not. If you crate train with positive reinforcement it's a benefit for everyone IMO even if you don't make them sleep in there.
    - jjtheblunt 4y ago
      I think what we did is much more similar to what you describe, with the crate door left open, so she didn't feel isolated when the other pets and humans were in other rooms. we moved the crate upstairs and left the door to it open, and she took a liking to it as her own space, and would choose to go sleep in it like it was her bedroom (or whatever), but having it at the distant end of the house clearly alone for the sake of isolating her is what I found counterproductive.
    - pavas 4y ago
      You're talking about the dog not minding being in the crate since you've taught them its nice and cozy. In that case why does it have to be a crate, why not say, an indoor doghouse? As far as that goes, there's nothing wrong with that and that's not the part that people actually have problems with (but it's a nice strawman to argue against). The part that is cruel and abusive is locking them up when nobody is at home so they can't damage your possessions. If there is some emergency like a fire, intruder, something falling down, etc, they can't do anything about it.
martythemaniak 4y ago
> where you don't rock the child to sleep for an hour, but you check in on them, gently touch them, talk to them soothingly for a little bit, and then you leave them for a little while. Come back in a little bit and briefly soothe them, and then leave again for a little while. As long as they know you are there. And you could stretch those periods out to see how the child does You just described the Ferber method, a very popular sleep training approach.
- upsidesinclude 4y ago
  Thank you for saving me from having to look this up. I thought the same thing, 'isn't that basically describing sleep training...?'
- davidmurdoch 4y ago
  TIL: some people think "cry it out" means total abandonment, and that they will ignorantly and confidently tell others that it's child abuse. > > As long as they know you are there. This line was funny to me... like they think the baby is running on logic and not instinct at 6 months old.
JamesSwift 4y ago
Theres different levels of crying, and its easy to tell the difference as a parent. Theres regular, all-purpose crying which I'm in favor of allowing to run its course. Then theres actual panicked, full-on crying which is when I would say its time to intervene.
johndhi 4y ago
Do you have children?
- afandian 4y ago
  Not the commenter you replied to, but I am a parent. I see attachment as one of the most important aspects of human experience. Forcibly severing this is, in my opinion, emotional abuse.
  - jjulius 4y ago
    >Forcibly severing this is, in my opinion, emotional abuse. When you think of parents letting their kid "cry it out", what do you picture? What is your understanding of the process? Edit: Seems the answer to my question is over here[1]. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34177882 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34177882
    - em-bee 4y ago
      i have been with friends who let their baby cry it out in the other room while the parents entertained guests. it did feel like emotional abuse.
  - sweetheart 4y ago
    Well said. My wife is a therapist who works extensively with children and she would absolutely agree with you. Letting a child cry it out has profound effects of development, in ways that may be invisible or hard to notice for many years. Someone else in this thread mentioned The Boy Who Was Raised As a Dog, which is a great book on the subject.
    - zajio1am 4y ago
      From the article: "Hiscock's study, for example, the largest and longest longitudinal study done on sleep training, found sleep-trained children were no more likely to be insecurely attached to their caregiver at six years of age than their peers."
jjulius 4y ago
>Edit: I saw another comment which talked about "checking in" on the infant during sleep training. I think there is some middle ground I would be comfortable with after 6 months of age, where you don't rock the child to sleep for an hour, but you check in on them, gently touch them, talk to them soothingly for a little bit, and then you leave them for a little while. Come back in a little bit and briefly soothe them, and then leave again for a little while. As long as they know you are there. And you could stretch those periods out to see how the child does. But, again I would suggest to be very conservative and cautious and don't try this at too early of an age. I have two children under the age of three, so this has been a topic I'm innately familiar with. What you are describing is the commonly taught method of "crying it out" or "sleep training", and yes, it's commonly suggested to wait until at least six months of age. It's incredibly frustrating how many people in this thread seem to think that we are just abandoning our children for the evening and calling it abusive, even earlier in your own post.
remote_phone 4y ago
> Having read "The Boy Who was Raised as a Dog", which goes into a fair amount of detail regarding attachment and attachment disorders, letting an infant "cry it out" strikes me as child abuse. You sound exactly like someone who doesn’t have kids, advising parents and speaking with authority that you don’t have.
- paganel 4y ago
  > and speaking with authority that you don’t have. All of us have (had) parents, the majority of us have been raised by parents, and that includes the childless people. And even the people who weren't fortunate enough to be raised by one or two parents are entitled to talk about parenting, I'd say that they're even more entitled to talk about it.
  - remote_phone 4y ago
    What is easier, watching a movie or making a movie? Or do you think those are equal in effort?
    - paganel 4y ago
      The discussion is in no way comparable. If anything, you could say that we've all been actors, i.e we've al been kids, but even that seems a little stretched. Anyway, this talk of "it's so hard to be a parent!" mostly comes from middle-class well-to-do people for whom it shouldn't be actually hard to be parents, or at least not as hard as it objectively is to much poorer people. I suspect they're mostly doing it (the complaining, that is) as a social signifier, the same way that part of the same well-to-do middle class people used to complain until not that long ago that they're over-worked because of all of the emails.
      - remote_phone 4y ago
        You have no authority to say they are not comparable, nor do you have any authority to say that being a child gives you any insight on how to be a parent.

lars512 4y ago

The article mentions this 5y study (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22966034/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22966034/) which included a sleep training intervention at 7m, and found "no evidence of differences between intervention and control families for any outcome". It sounds like the main concern would be starting sleep training too early (sub 6 months), or using it in unusual situations where there are already attachment issues.

jjtheblunt 4y ago

Not regarding a human child, but my spouse thought leaving our rescue dog, still a youngster only a few months old, in a cage in another room overnight was somehow proper, which frankly incensed me as cruel and abusive nonsense, because it's not the way of the wild, not what any of us were evolved for. And I'd lived with and worked with rescue animals for decades, so felt strongly about this. (i put my foot down and gave her run of the house so she was soothed to be with her (generalized) family, and she's been fantastic ever since. my spouse is still indignant about her plan being abandoned, but it proved the effective and healthy choice.)

cycrutchfield 4y ago
Crate training is pretty normal and not sure why you feel so weird about it. Is it “the way of the wild” to keep the dog in your house?
- zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
  Docking tails and ears is normal too. Male circumcision is normal. Locking people in cages for possessing certain plants, extracts, chemicals is normal. War and all of the murder that goes on in it is normal. Burning coal is normal. Limiting rights of women is some countries is normal.
- illegalsmile 4y ago
  I don't get it either. Our shelter dogs were always crated overnight since they weren't allowed in the bedrooms and they would go there when it was bed time with no problem. Occasionally they'd go to their crate to take naps or seek refuge there during storms. I guess if a dog willingly going into a crate to sleep while everyone else slept is cruel and abusive I don't know what they'd think about actual abuse. Our dogs lived long happy lives. Most dogs I know have a spot that's tight and cozy, maybe even covered, that they go to; crate or not. If you crate train with positive reinforcement it's a benefit for everyone IMO even if you don't make them sleep in there.
  - jjtheblunt 4y ago
    I think what we did is much more similar to what you describe, with the crate door left open, so she didn't feel isolated when the other pets and humans were in other rooms. we moved the crate upstairs and left the door to it open, and she took a liking to it as her own space, and would choose to go sleep in it like it was her bedroom (or whatever), but having it at the distant end of the house clearly alone for the sake of isolating her is what I found counterproductive.
  - pavas 4y ago
    You're talking about the dog not minding being in the crate since you've taught them its nice and cozy. In that case why does it have to be a crate, why not say, an indoor doghouse? As far as that goes, there's nothing wrong with that and that's not the part that people actually have problems with (but it's a nice strawman to argue against). The part that is cruel and abusive is locking them up when nobody is at home so they can't damage your possessions. If there is some emergency like a fire, intruder, something falling down, etc, they can't do anything about it.

martythemaniak 4y ago

> where you don't rock the child to sleep for an hour, but you check in on them, gently touch them, talk to them soothingly for a little bit, and then you leave them for a little while. Come back in a little bit and briefly soothe them, and then leave again for a little while. As long as they know you are there. And you could stretch those periods out to see how the child does You just described the Ferber method, a very popular sleep training approach.

upsidesinclude 4y ago
Thank you for saving me from having to look this up. I thought the same thing, 'isn't that basically describing sleep training...?'
davidmurdoch 4y ago
TIL: some people think "cry it out" means total abandonment, and that they will ignorantly and confidently tell others that it's child abuse. > > As long as they know you are there. This line was funny to me... like they think the baby is running on logic and not instinct at 6 months old.

JamesSwift 4y ago

Theres different levels of crying, and its easy to tell the difference as a parent. Theres regular, all-purpose crying which I'm in favor of allowing to run its course. Then theres actual panicked, full-on crying which is when I would say its time to intervene.

johndhi 4y ago

Do you have children?

afandian 4y ago
Not the commenter you replied to, but I am a parent. I see attachment as one of the most important aspects of human experience. Forcibly severing this is, in my opinion, emotional abuse.
- jjulius 4y ago
  >Forcibly severing this is, in my opinion, emotional abuse. When you think of parents letting their kid "cry it out", what do you picture? What is your understanding of the process? Edit: Seems the answer to my question is over here[1]. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34177882 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34177882
  - em-bee 4y ago
    i have been with friends who let their baby cry it out in the other room while the parents entertained guests. it did feel like emotional abuse.
- sweetheart 4y ago
  Well said. My wife is a therapist who works extensively with children and she would absolutely agree with you. Letting a child cry it out has profound effects of development, in ways that may be invisible or hard to notice for many years. Someone else in this thread mentioned The Boy Who Was Raised As a Dog, which is a great book on the subject.
  - zajio1am 4y ago
    From the article: "Hiscock's study, for example, the largest and longest longitudinal study done on sleep training, found sleep-trained children were no more likely to be insecurely attached to their caregiver at six years of age than their peers."

jjulius 4y ago

>Edit: I saw another comment which talked about "checking in" on the infant during sleep training. I think there is some middle ground I would be comfortable with after 6 months of age, where you don't rock the child to sleep for an hour, but you check in on them, gently touch them, talk to them soothingly for a little bit, and then you leave them for a little while. Come back in a little bit and briefly soothe them, and then leave again for a little while. As long as they know you are there. And you could stretch those periods out to see how the child does. But, again I would suggest to be very conservative and cautious and don't try this at too early of an age. I have two children under the age of three, so this has been a topic I'm innately familiar with. What you are describing is the commonly taught method of "crying it out" or "sleep training", and yes, it's commonly suggested to wait until at least six months of age. It's incredibly frustrating how many people in this thread seem to think that we are just abandoning our children for the evening and calling it abusive, even earlier in your own post.

remote_phone 4y ago

> Having read "The Boy Who was Raised as a Dog", which goes into a fair amount of detail regarding attachment and attachment disorders, letting an infant "cry it out" strikes me as child abuse. You sound exactly like someone who doesn’t have kids, advising parents and speaking with authority that you don’t have.

paganel 4y ago
> and speaking with authority that you don’t have. All of us have (had) parents, the majority of us have been raised by parents, and that includes the childless people. And even the people who weren't fortunate enough to be raised by one or two parents are entitled to talk about parenting, I'd say that they're even more entitled to talk about it.
- remote_phone 4y ago
  What is easier, watching a movie or making a movie? Or do you think those are equal in effort?
  - paganel 4y ago
    The discussion is in no way comparable. If anything, you could say that we've all been actors, i.e we've al been kids, but even that seems a little stretched. Anyway, this talk of "it's so hard to be a parent!" mostly comes from middle-class well-to-do people for whom it shouldn't be actually hard to be parents, or at least not as hard as it objectively is to much poorer people. I suspect they're mostly doing it (the complaining, that is) as a social signifier, the same way that part of the same well-to-do middle class people used to complain until not that long ago that they're over-worked because of all of the emails.
    - remote_phone 4y ago
      You have no authority to say they are not comparable, nor do you have any authority to say that being a child gives you any insight on how to be a parent.