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It's mangled because humans are complex. A lot of the risks are from activities or issues that cause sleep problems -- alcohol, drugs, sleep apnea. What is the

It's mangled because humans are complex. A lot of the risks are from activities or issues that cause sleep problems -- alcohol, drugs, sleep apnea. What is the likelihood that a baby gets smothered? These all factor in. The risk decreases with age. Co-sleeping, generally, is much more dangerous than sleeping on their own in a proper crib. If it works for you, great. Some people take extraordinary steps to ensure it's safe, like removing pillows or fluffy comforters. It should not be generally recommended though. Any parent knows that nothing is entirely binary.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
I agree, but I disagree with your statement about being way safe. Research doesn't account for what happens when baby is in the crib and it doesn't sleep. So sure, you might have avoided SIDS, but the baby might die because the parent fell asleep while standing with the baby in their arms. P. S. Again sorry for my tone, I'm super angry for how the entire medicine treats Co-sleeping like a horrific thing So the research from my perspective is highly insufficient to prove anything. And yes, you can sleep while standing in the subway, by the way.
- xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
  I don't think hypotheticals are very useful. A sleep deprived parent is a risk in any scenario. It's a moot point. The only point I was making is that it is generally agreed upon that a crib is safe for babies to sleep in. They can't fall out, get smothered, etc. Medicine treats co-sleeping horrifically because, by any measure, it's less safe. Few medical professionals will recommend, generally, anything associated with such risk. If you choose to co-sleep, I believe you should simply accept the risks. We can't pretend there are none. We can't reasonably ask the medical community to stop being harsh. Perhaps co-sleeping hasn't had it's "fed is best" moment that we've seen with bottle v breast, but I'm not sure it ever will. It's simply more risky.
  - Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
    That's what I'm disagreeing with: there is less risk of the baby dying IN THE CRIB, but there isn't less risk of the baby dying overall, that's not assessed (and it would be very hard to prove), but the reality is just that. Then again, the risk factors of Co-sleeping are known and can be eliminated: put the bed on the floor, remove extra pillows, use light covers or no blankets, set the room temperature to something you can sleep well while naked, no drugs/alcohol. There is also a whole thing about the skin-to-skin sleep providing to the baby regulation for breathing and circulation (no idea about the scientific base of it, but it was told by doctors, so I assume there is some), which seems to help for other issues too, as well as being a known way to prevent SIDS.
    - cycrutchfield 4y ago
      Sorry, but you’re wrong. Not only wrong, but confidently and smugly wrong. You think you know best but haven’t bothered to actually do any real research on this topic.
      - lazide 4y ago
        Not condoning, but at some point that's a necessary survival reflex.
      - spookthesunset 4y ago
        What does it mean to be "wrong" in this context? Maybe they've looked at the information and decided that the pros outweigh the risks? Who gets to decide that when such a decision is well outside the scope of science or facts? Such decisions fall into a persons values and risk assessments. No expert can, nor should, make such a decision for an individual.
        Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
        Yes that's what I meant, but I don't think my statement reflected that correctly, it came as "this should be what you should do" and in a certain way, I'm arguing exactly against that behavior. I apologized in a separate comment. Yes, we did a risk assessment (we were literally terrified of having the baby sleep with us), I read ~5 books about the topic before the baby was born and talked to various professionals. It was a weighted risk: me and my wife don't roll while asleep (I sleep tummy down and she sleeps tummy up), and I wake up when I have to roll. We also adopted various strategies to check on any babies movement: for example, I had an arm in physical contact with baby's body. Later on the baby just slept on mom's breasts, in which case she had full control (any movement would wake her up) at that point.
- lazide 4y ago
  The issue is that even doing basic summaries of what is (actually) happening would require full time attention from a researcher 24/7 (so really 3 researchers, minimum). Parents are sleep deprived, under incredible stress, and trying to avoid judgement from any number of other parties. Asking for survey responses ain't going to help, and even if they are trying to be fully transparent, they won't be able remember half of what is going on anyway.
- spookthesunset 4y ago
  > P. S. Again sorry for my tone, I'm super angry for how the entire medicine treats Co-sleeping like a horrific thing This is a theme across all kinds of expertise. In my opinion a good expert will understand that the world isn't black and white. They'll understand that there are many, many more variables that go into a decision than their particular line of expertise. They'll understand their job is to clearly convey the risks and benefits that fall into their scope and more important they'll clearly state that they alone cannot make a decision for you. Bad medical professionals think their expertise is all that should go into a decision. Good medical professionals will understand that there are countless other factors that go into a person's decision that fall well outside of the scope of their expertise. Based on what I've observed over the last 3 years, there are plenty of "experts" out there who seem to think that only their line of expertise should go into any decision.
  - lazide 4y ago
    The other challenge is the one of ‘how do you actually get different behavior’. Knowing all the shades of grey, what do you tell folks in the 15 seconds of attention (at most) that you’ll be able to get that may produce a better outcome. It definitely doesn’t include much grey.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago

I agree, but I disagree with your statement about being way safe. Research doesn't account for what happens when baby is in the crib and it doesn't sleep. So sure, you might have avoided SIDS, but the baby might die because the parent fell asleep while standing with the baby in their arms. P. S. Again sorry for my tone, I'm super angry for how the entire medicine treats Co-sleeping like a horrific thing So the research from my perspective is highly insufficient to prove anything. And yes, you can sleep while standing in the subway, by the way.

xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
I don't think hypotheticals are very useful. A sleep deprived parent is a risk in any scenario. It's a moot point. The only point I was making is that it is generally agreed upon that a crib is safe for babies to sleep in. They can't fall out, get smothered, etc. Medicine treats co-sleeping horrifically because, by any measure, it's less safe. Few medical professionals will recommend, generally, anything associated with such risk. If you choose to co-sleep, I believe you should simply accept the risks. We can't pretend there are none. We can't reasonably ask the medical community to stop being harsh. Perhaps co-sleeping hasn't had it's "fed is best" moment that we've seen with bottle v breast, but I'm not sure it ever will. It's simply more risky.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
  That's what I'm disagreeing with: there is less risk of the baby dying IN THE CRIB, but there isn't less risk of the baby dying overall, that's not assessed (and it would be very hard to prove), but the reality is just that. Then again, the risk factors of Co-sleeping are known and can be eliminated: put the bed on the floor, remove extra pillows, use light covers or no blankets, set the room temperature to something you can sleep well while naked, no drugs/alcohol. There is also a whole thing about the skin-to-skin sleep providing to the baby regulation for breathing and circulation (no idea about the scientific base of it, but it was told by doctors, so I assume there is some), which seems to help for other issues too, as well as being a known way to prevent SIDS.
  - cycrutchfield 4y ago
    Sorry, but you’re wrong. Not only wrong, but confidently and smugly wrong. You think you know best but haven’t bothered to actually do any real research on this topic.
    - lazide 4y ago
      Not condoning, but at some point that's a necessary survival reflex.
    - spookthesunset 4y ago
      What does it mean to be "wrong" in this context? Maybe they've looked at the information and decided that the pros outweigh the risks? Who gets to decide that when such a decision is well outside the scope of science or facts? Such decisions fall into a persons values and risk assessments. No expert can, nor should, make such a decision for an individual.
      - Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
        Yes that's what I meant, but I don't think my statement reflected that correctly, it came as "this should be what you should do" and in a certain way, I'm arguing exactly against that behavior. I apologized in a separate comment. Yes, we did a risk assessment (we were literally terrified of having the baby sleep with us), I read ~5 books about the topic before the baby was born and talked to various professionals. It was a weighted risk: me and my wife don't roll while asleep (I sleep tummy down and she sleeps tummy up), and I wake up when I have to roll. We also adopted various strategies to check on any babies movement: for example, I had an arm in physical contact with baby's body. Later on the baby just slept on mom's breasts, in which case she had full control (any movement would wake her up) at that point.
lazide 4y ago
The issue is that even doing basic summaries of what is (actually) happening would require full time attention from a researcher 24/7 (so really 3 researchers, minimum). Parents are sleep deprived, under incredible stress, and trying to avoid judgement from any number of other parties. Asking for survey responses ain't going to help, and even if they are trying to be fully transparent, they won't be able remember half of what is going on anyway.
spookthesunset 4y ago
> P. S. Again sorry for my tone, I'm super angry for how the entire medicine treats Co-sleeping like a horrific thing This is a theme across all kinds of expertise. In my opinion a good expert will understand that the world isn't black and white. They'll understand that there are many, many more variables that go into a decision than their particular line of expertise. They'll understand their job is to clearly convey the risks and benefits that fall into their scope and more important they'll clearly state that they alone cannot make a decision for you. Bad medical professionals think their expertise is all that should go into a decision. Good medical professionals will understand that there are countless other factors that go into a person's decision that fall well outside of the scope of their expertise. Based on what I've observed over the last 3 years, there are plenty of "experts" out there who seem to think that only their line of expertise should go into any decision.
- lazide 4y ago
  The other challenge is the one of ‘how do you actually get different behavior’. Knowing all the shades of grey, what do you tell folks in the 15 seconds of attention (at most) that you’ll be able to get that may produce a better outcome. It definitely doesn’t include much grey.