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Some cities, perhaps. I live in a large (for the Midwest) city in the heartland and previously, being a software engineer around here topped out at ~150k if you

Some cities, perhaps. I live in a large (for the Midwest) city in the heartland and previously, being a software engineer around here topped out at ~150k if you had 25 years of experience. (This was literally quoted to me by our most “illustrious” local company, which is just a big government/bigco contracting place). I got very lucky in finding a highly unusual job paying >>> median wage (but still very light compared to if I moved to the Bay Area). Then the pandemic happened and now in my most recent job search (just completed, I got laid off in November alongside all the other people) pretty much every place offered remote without even asking and I had my pick of pretty much any company I wanted despite my house being literally in a (feed)corn field. So pretty pumped about some of these very profitable companies finally directing some (prodigious) payroll into my locale. Both selfishly and because I hope it helps inject outside cash locally where it otherwise wouldn’t ever go.

jimkleiber 4y ago
I'm both excited for you and worried that over the medium to long term, companies will adjust the pay down to match people's locales and such salaries will be lower over time from more competition. But as I said, excited for you as it currently stands :-)
- xen2xen1 4y ago
  The real concern is that companies that are 100% remote will pick Romaina and not Iowa.
  - newaccount2021 4y ago
    [dead]
  - em500 4y ago
    Why is that the real concern? Are Romanians (or Indians for that matter) somehow less deserving of higher pay than Iowans?
    - watwut 4y ago
      I think that it is because speaker is an American and for Americans, business being in America is better then the one in Romania. The same goes for people in Romania who absolutely understand the exact same thing. They prefer jobs to be in their country. It is legitimate for people to worry whether jobs will be where they live or elsewhere.
      - em500 4y ago
        My question was mostly retorical. I know that prioritizing fellow citizens is common in almost every country. But I think it is in most cases not morally justifiable, especially in the US where almost everyone is descendent of low single-digit generation immigrants. Not to mention 0-generation immigrants especially in California. (It wouldn't surprise me if there are more highly paid Californian SWE with family in India or China than in Iowa.)
        mensetmanusman 4y ago
        It is usually morally justifiable because one is more likely to have a positive impact on your family and community.
        sokoloff 4y ago
        It wouldn’t surprise me either to learn that more Californian <anything requiring college or equivalent> have family coming from among over a bit over a billion than from a bit over 3 million people.
        watwut 4y ago
        What does being 3th or more generation immigrant have to do with that? At that point, the ties toward where ancestors came from are purely theoretical. The person have nothing to do with culture or economy of country of origin anymore.
    - skeeter2020 4y ago
      Is it a real concern? Obviously if you live in Iowa, yes.
  - theGnuMe 4y ago
    I use to worry about this but in my experience there's too much work and not enough workers worldwide so it's not a big deal especially considering language barriers. Even outsourcing hits physical limits. Having folks in the same or closely related time zones makes a huge difference. Having folks with skin in the game and no Visa issues as well. I also think opportunities are only going to grow.
- atomicnumber3 4y ago
  I think - and obviously this is speculation - that “real” software companies (where their primary product is a software thingy with appropriate unit economics) will not really be able to lower comp regardless of where it is. There’s a reason engineers in SF get paid 300-500k TC easy, and it’s because they generate multiples of that in return. Software is ridiculously high-margin and (not to toot our collective on horn, but) it’s not something anyone can just do, especially at the mix of technical and soft skills that many FAANG type places require you to be at once you’re at senior/staff levels. And let’s be honest, if places really could, they would’ve already outsourced to people where COL is 99% lower instead of 20-50% lower. I do think people tend to overestimate how much cheaper it is to live in flyover country. Even real estate isn’t that% much cheaper unless you’re literally buying a farm with no good internet. And iPhones cost the exact same. So it’s not like companies will be eyeing Kansas as the next India or Estonia. It’s just not enough of an arbitrage to be worth it. Most places I looked at recently were only geo-adjusting base comp by either 0 or 10%. This is all for senior software eng positions though. Junior and mid positions might be a very different story due to supply being so much higher.
grugagag 4y ago
Would the salaries be different for different remote locations though? If salaries were level then this would be a good thing for workers and for cities as well. Cities may as well get more decongested, rents may drop enough to become affordable and so on
qwertyuiop_ 4y ago
I am planning on living on a farming locale like yours. Being a software professional what is your internet connectivity like ? If wanted to run a fiber how much would that cost ?
- atomicnumber3 4y ago
  It’s a bit odd tbh because around here even a city of almost half a million souls isn’t more than about a 25 minute drive from honeybee territory even if you stand in the heart of downtown. So while I do live in a cornfield, I have gigabit fiber and am in a new construction suburb right on the border between the honeybees and the actual city limits. It’s a nice mix. And since the area of a circle increases with the square of its radius I expect it to stay roughly at this level of development for quite a while since there’s tons of space. I don’t think you could even get a response from someone at the local ISPs to laugh at you for asking about running fiber though, so you do have to pre-check that if (since) it’s important to you. (I did). It’s ATT and Spectrum (née Charter) around here.

jimkleiber 4y ago

I'm both excited for you and worried that over the medium to long term, companies will adjust the pay down to match people's locales and such salaries will be lower over time from more competition. But as I said, excited for you as it currently stands :-)

xen2xen1 4y ago
The real concern is that companies that are 100% remote will pick Romaina and not Iowa.
- newaccount2021 4y ago
  [dead]
- em500 4y ago
  Why is that the real concern? Are Romanians (or Indians for that matter) somehow less deserving of higher pay than Iowans?
  - watwut 4y ago
    I think that it is because speaker is an American and for Americans, business being in America is better then the one in Romania. The same goes for people in Romania who absolutely understand the exact same thing. They prefer jobs to be in their country. It is legitimate for people to worry whether jobs will be where they live or elsewhere.
    - em500 4y ago
      My question was mostly retorical. I know that prioritizing fellow citizens is common in almost every country. But I think it is in most cases not morally justifiable, especially in the US where almost everyone is descendent of low single-digit generation immigrants. Not to mention 0-generation immigrants especially in California. (It wouldn't surprise me if there are more highly paid Californian SWE with family in India or China than in Iowa.)
      - mensetmanusman 4y ago
        It is usually morally justifiable because one is more likely to have a positive impact on your family and community.
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        It wouldn’t surprise me either to learn that more Californian <anything requiring college or equivalent> have family coming from among over a bit over a billion than from a bit over 3 million people.
      - watwut 4y ago
        What does being 3th or more generation immigrant have to do with that? At that point, the ties toward where ancestors came from are purely theoretical. The person have nothing to do with culture or economy of country of origin anymore.
  - skeeter2020 4y ago
    Is it a real concern? Obviously if you live in Iowa, yes.
- theGnuMe 4y ago
  I use to worry about this but in my experience there's too much work and not enough workers worldwide so it's not a big deal especially considering language barriers. Even outsourcing hits physical limits. Having folks in the same or closely related time zones makes a huge difference. Having folks with skin in the game and no Visa issues as well. I also think opportunities are only going to grow.
atomicnumber3 4y ago
I think - and obviously this is speculation - that “real” software companies (where their primary product is a software thingy with appropriate unit economics) will not really be able to lower comp regardless of where it is. There’s a reason engineers in SF get paid 300-500k TC easy, and it’s because they generate multiples of that in return. Software is ridiculously high-margin and (not to toot our collective on horn, but) it’s not something anyone can just do, especially at the mix of technical and soft skills that many FAANG type places require you to be at once you’re at senior/staff levels. And let’s be honest, if places really could, they would’ve already outsourced to people where COL is 99% lower instead of 20-50% lower. I do think people tend to overestimate how much cheaper it is to live in flyover country. Even real estate isn’t that% much cheaper unless you’re literally buying a farm with no good internet. And iPhones cost the exact same. So it’s not like companies will be eyeing Kansas as the next India or Estonia. It’s just not enough of an arbitrage to be worth it. Most places I looked at recently were only geo-adjusting base comp by either 0 or 10%. This is all for senior software eng positions though. Junior and mid positions might be a very different story due to supply being so much higher.

grugagag 4y ago

Would the salaries be different for different remote locations though? If salaries were level then this would be a good thing for workers and for cities as well. Cities may as well get more decongested, rents may drop enough to become affordable and so on

qwertyuiop_ 4y ago

I am planning on living on a farming locale like yours. Being a software professional what is your internet connectivity like ? If wanted to run a fiber how much would that cost ?

atomicnumber3 4y ago
It’s a bit odd tbh because around here even a city of almost half a million souls isn’t more than about a 25 minute drive from honeybee territory even if you stand in the heart of downtown. So while I do live in a cornfield, I have gigabit fiber and am in a new construction suburb right on the border between the honeybees and the actual city limits. It’s a nice mix. And since the area of a circle increases with the square of its radius I expect it to stay roughly at this level of development for quite a while since there’s tons of space. I don’t think you could even get a response from someone at the local ISPs to laugh at you for asking about running fiber though, so you do have to pre-check that if (since) it’s important to you. (I did). It’s ATT and Spectrum (née Charter) around here.