5 ms·

Apple only lets me choose a default search engine from its pre-approved list

63 points by chatmasta 4y ago

deafpolygon 4y ago
The solution is to stop using platforms that are so actively hostile towards people's freedoms. Edit: folks downvoting my comment are deluding themselves. Apple is hostile towards freedom. It is only by regulation and laws that we're able to gain any, and they actively lobby against those.
- warkdarrior 4y ago
  I ordered my GNU Hurd-powered mobile device right before Christmas, it supposed to ship any day now. /s
  - deafpolygon 4y ago
    Good on you. /s
  - Jorengarenar 4y ago
    What about de-googled Android?
    - m463 4y ago
      was "and-o-rid" unintentional?
      - Jorengarenar 4y ago
        Yes, it was a typo
      - deafpolygon 4y ago
        A freudian slip.
  - seba_dos1 4y ago
    I must admit that you made me chuckle, but the truth is that for the last 15 years I've been using Neo FreeRunner, Nokia N900 and then Librem 5 as my phones and couldn't be happier.
- kypro 4y ago
  It's a relatively low effort comment, but I'm not actually sure why you're being downvoted for this. If you value being able to use your device in whatever way you please then I'd agree it's kinda silly to use an iOS device. If you're the kind of person who's going to want to use obscure search engines or side load apps then maybe an iPhone just isn't for you. I suppose the pushback would that "freedom" comes at the cost of usability so from a practical standpoint it makes sense that there is some limitations.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - JimRoepcke 4y ago
    Is there some special kind of user on HN that has downvote buttons, or am I the special kind of user on HN that only has upvote buttons?
    - fmajid 4y ago
      I'm seeing them right now. It seems to be rate limited based on your karma and how downvote-happy you are.
      - m463 4y ago
        I thought they disappeared sometimes. I thought it was if you commented in a thread?
        fsflover 4y ago
        You can't downvote replies to your comments.
        LocalH 4y ago
        I feel like downvoting also goes away after a comment has reached an age threshold, although I don't know what that threshold is.
- nmcela 4y ago
  Then you'd be excluding yourself from every platform. We obviously need serious regulation to these massive dystopic tech monopolies.
  - deafpolygon 4y ago
    More or less. But until people are more aware of this, nothing will happen.
- foogazi 4y ago
  > The solution is to stop using platforms that are so actively hostile towards people's freedoms. So drastic - The actual solution is to use a Safari extension or use another ios browser (Firefox)
  - deafpolygon 4y ago
    Isn't that the same approach?
emodendroket 4y ago
Probably they don’t do that because the experience would be confusing for 98% of users. Is there some search engine people actually use not in that list?
- super256 4y ago
  Yes. I use kagi.com, and it is incredibly annoying to be redirected to *DuckDuckGo when I use the “search on the web” feature. *IMO DDG is the only viable alternative to google in the apple search selection list
  - fotta 4y ago
    There’s a Kagi safari extension that will redirect any searches to Kagi. I still set my default to DDG because I think the extension intercepts after the request has been sent. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/kagi-search-for-safari/id1607766153 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/kagi-search-for-safari/id16077...
    - PartiallyTyped 4y ago
      There is also a browser built by the Kagi team for iOS. Well, as much of a browser as you can get on iOS.
      - fotta 4y ago
        I tried it when it was initially in beta but haven’t tried it again. I should give it another spin.
    - edgyquant 4y ago
      But then when I want to do another search I have to disable this extension otherwise it still redirects
      - fotta 4y ago
        You mean on a Kagi result page? I just type the new query into the search bar on the Kagi page instead. Agreed it’s not ideal.
vasqw 4y ago
That's safari settings. You can run another browser.
- leodriesch 4y ago
  In my experience Safari is the best browser on iOS, because it is the only one that supports extensions. It also has the best UI/UX and speed of any browser on iOS, but that’s subjective.
- nickthegreek 4y ago
  I'm a big apple user and recognize this is messed up. If you are going to make your browser default and shipped with the phone, and not allow other rendering engines in your appstore, you better be bending over backwards to make sure stuff like this is open. This is already a solved problem and I expect Apple to already have regular features like this baked in.
aplummer 4y ago
So how would you code this feature so it works with any search engine off the bat and how would the team know this might be a priority to develop next if you haven’t filed a radar?
- deafpolygon 4y ago
  This feature has been solved on other browser.
  - aplummer 4y ago
    I’m more interested in my actual question. If there is some sort of interoperable API or something, not engaging with hostile glib one liners.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      A workaround approach - disregarding any existing standards - would be to simply give the user a random, unique string to search for and then try to detect that string in the URL (typically as a query parameter) - then the browser just has to replace that string with the user's actual search query in subsequent searches.
      - deafpolygon 4y ago
        This is probably how Firefox works, because I get suggested a new search engine every time I search on a new site.
        lstamour 4y ago
        Firefox uses OpenSearch. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/add-or-remove-search-engine-firefox https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/add-or-remove-search-en... Chrome uses HTML5 search inputs: https://martin-thoma.com/search-engine-autodiscovery/ https://martin-thoma.com/search-engine-autodiscovery/
- 4y ago
snehk 4y ago
Use the Brave browser then. It's on the App Store. If you're the type of person who wants to add other search engines and trigger them via URL parameters, you're the type of person who knows that Apple's system is a walled garden. At this point, it often doesn't feel like people are asking "Hey, could you improve this?" and more like the same complaint over and over again with the complaint being "Apple is still Apple and instead of buying another thing after Apple being exactly like this, I complain about the thing I bought being the exact thing I bought".
- xg15 4y ago
  I think the anticompetitive aspect here is different. Suppose you're some amazing new search engine startup with rapid promotion through word-of-mouth. Normally, all you'd have to do would be to present some convenient links (or walkthroughs) how your search engine could be added as the default search engine. Except for iPhones, there is suddenly a gatekeeper. If you don't convince Apple to add you to the list, it won't matter how good you are or how much people want to make you the default engine, as long as Apple says no, they can't.
  - snehk 4y ago
    I get that and I share this sentiment 100%. However, there are various other browsers on the App Store including the one from Brave. I guess I don't see this as someone wanting their favorite search engine to be available in Safari. I see it as chapter #799 of the old story of "Let's talk about Apple making decisions for the user while others allow me to make decisions myself".
ThomasMidgley 4y ago
That's because Apple knows what's good for you.
- fmajid 4y ago
  No one outside top Apple & Google brass knows exactly how much Apple's protection racket with Google costs the latter, but estimates are $13B a year, which would be a healthy chunk of either's profits.
28304283409234 4y ago
Yes. So stop using apple.
qwertyuiop_ 4y ago
https://www.googlewatchblog.de/wp-content/uploads/tim-cook-sundar-pichai.jpg https://www.googlewatchblog.de/wp-content/uploads/tim-cook-s...
gabsouki 4y ago
I made a request to DDG a few months ago to add a !kagi bang command. Still haven’t heard from them but it’s worth a try. https://duckduckgo.com/newbang https://duckduckgo.com/newbang Adding other browsers to DDG bangs would somewhat solve the problem, at least for me with Kagi.
- chatmasta 4y ago
  Yeah, I use these bangs too, but it also means that every query is sent to 2x search engines - DDG and the destination search. There is a Safari extension called xSearch [0] which implements bangs client side, but I uninstalled it because I noticed weird TLS errors on a few sites while it was running, and I'm generally uncomfortable with the level of access required for it to function. [0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/xsearch-for-safari/id1579902068 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/xsearch-for-safari/id157990206...
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  FYI, Kagi has an app that provides an extension that takes over the DDG domain (and maybe other default search engine domains) to redirect searches to Kagi. This still leaks the query to the original search engine, but it's better than nothing.
falcolas 4y ago
The following is a mitigation, not a solution. You can pick a different search engine in, and add search engines to, Firefox mobile on iOS. The picker pictured in TFA is only for mobile Safari. It uses the same renderer as Safari on iOS, but the search engine is not part of that. I imagine that mobile chrome (I don't use it) can do the same.
jkmcf 4y ago
Try "Custom Search Engine Extension for Safari" from the App Store.

63 points by chatmasta 4y ago

The solution is to stop using platforms that are so actively hostile towards people's freedoms. Edit: folks downvoting my comment are deluding themselves. Apple is hostile towards freedom. It is only by regulation and laws that we're able to gain any, and they actively lobby against those.

warkdarrior 4y ago
I ordered my GNU Hurd-powered mobile device right before Christmas, it supposed to ship any day now. /s
- deafpolygon 4y ago
  Good on you. /s
- Jorengarenar 4y ago
  What about de-googled Android?
  - m463 4y ago
    was "and-o-rid" unintentional?
    - Jorengarenar 4y ago
      Yes, it was a typo
    - deafpolygon 4y ago
      A freudian slip.
- seba_dos1 4y ago
  I must admit that you made me chuckle, but the truth is that for the last 15 years I've been using Neo FreeRunner, Nokia N900 and then Librem 5 as my phones and couldn't be happier.
kypro 4y ago
It's a relatively low effort comment, but I'm not actually sure why you're being downvoted for this. If you value being able to use your device in whatever way you please then I'd agree it's kinda silly to use an iOS device. If you're the kind of person who's going to want to use obscure search engines or side load apps then maybe an iPhone just isn't for you. I suppose the pushback would that "freedom" comes at the cost of usability so from a practical standpoint it makes sense that there is some limitations.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- JimRoepcke 4y ago
  Is there some special kind of user on HN that has downvote buttons, or am I the special kind of user on HN that only has upvote buttons?
  - fmajid 4y ago
    I'm seeing them right now. It seems to be rate limited based on your karma and how downvote-happy you are.
    - m463 4y ago
      I thought they disappeared sometimes. I thought it was if you commented in a thread?
      - fsflover 4y ago
        You can't downvote replies to your comments.
        LocalH 4y ago
        I feel like downvoting also goes away after a comment has reached an age threshold, although I don't know what that threshold is.
nmcela 4y ago
Then you'd be excluding yourself from every platform. We obviously need serious regulation to these massive dystopic tech monopolies.
- deafpolygon 4y ago
  More or less. But until people are more aware of this, nothing will happen.
foogazi 4y ago
> The solution is to stop using platforms that are so actively hostile towards people's freedoms. So drastic - The actual solution is to use a Safari extension or use another ios browser (Firefox)
- deafpolygon 4y ago
  Isn't that the same approach?

emodendroket 4y ago

Probably they don’t do that because the experience would be confusing for 98% of users. Is there some search engine people actually use not in that list?

super256 4y ago
Yes. I use kagi.com, and it is incredibly annoying to be redirected to *DuckDuckGo when I use the “search on the web” feature. *IMO DDG is the only viable alternative to google in the apple search selection list
- fotta 4y ago
  There’s a Kagi safari extension that will redirect any searches to Kagi. I still set my default to DDG because I think the extension intercepts after the request has been sent. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/kagi-search-for-safari/id1607766153 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/kagi-search-for-safari/id16077...
  - PartiallyTyped 4y ago
    There is also a browser built by the Kagi team for iOS. Well, as much of a browser as you can get on iOS.
    - fotta 4y ago
      I tried it when it was initially in beta but haven’t tried it again. I should give it another spin.
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    But then when I want to do another search I have to disable this extension otherwise it still redirects
    - fotta 4y ago
      You mean on a Kagi result page? I just type the new query into the search bar on the Kagi page instead. Agreed it’s not ideal.

vasqw 4y ago

That's safari settings. You can run another browser.

leodriesch 4y ago
In my experience Safari is the best browser on iOS, because it is the only one that supports extensions. It also has the best UI/UX and speed of any browser on iOS, but that’s subjective.
nickthegreek 4y ago
I'm a big apple user and recognize this is messed up. If you are going to make your browser default and shipped with the phone, and not allow other rendering engines in your appstore, you better be bending over backwards to make sure stuff like this is open. This is already a solved problem and I expect Apple to already have regular features like this baked in.

aplummer 4y ago

So how would you code this feature so it works with any search engine off the bat and how would the team know this might be a priority to develop next if you haven’t filed a radar?

deafpolygon 4y ago
This feature has been solved on other browser.
- aplummer 4y ago
  I’m more interested in my actual question. If there is some sort of interoperable API or something, not engaging with hostile glib one liners.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    A workaround approach - disregarding any existing standards - would be to simply give the user a random, unique string to search for and then try to detect that string in the URL (typically as a query parameter) - then the browser just has to replace that string with the user's actual search query in subsequent searches.
    - deafpolygon 4y ago
      This is probably how Firefox works, because I get suggested a new search engine every time I search on a new site.
      - lstamour 4y ago
        Firefox uses OpenSearch. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/add-or-remove-search-engine-firefox https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/add-or-remove-search-en... Chrome uses HTML5 search inputs: https://martin-thoma.com/search-engine-autodiscovery/ https://martin-thoma.com/search-engine-autodiscovery/
4y ago

snehk 4y ago

Use the Brave browser then. It's on the App Store. If you're the type of person who wants to add other search engines and trigger them via URL parameters, you're the type of person who knows that Apple's system is a walled garden. At this point, it often doesn't feel like people are asking "Hey, could you improve this?" and more like the same complaint over and over again with the complaint being "Apple is still Apple and instead of buying another thing after Apple being exactly like this, I complain about the thing I bought being the exact thing I bought".

xg15 4y ago
I think the anticompetitive aspect here is different. Suppose you're some amazing new search engine startup with rapid promotion through word-of-mouth. Normally, all you'd have to do would be to present some convenient links (or walkthroughs) how your search engine could be added as the default search engine. Except for iPhones, there is suddenly a gatekeeper. If you don't convince Apple to add you to the list, it won't matter how good you are or how much people want to make you the default engine, as long as Apple says no, they can't.
- snehk 4y ago
  I get that and I share this sentiment 100%. However, there are various other browsers on the App Store including the one from Brave. I guess I don't see this as someone wanting their favorite search engine to be available in Safari. I see it as chapter #799 of the old story of "Let's talk about Apple making decisions for the user while others allow me to make decisions myself".

ThomasMidgley 4y ago

That's because Apple knows what's good for you.

fmajid 4y ago
No one outside top Apple & Google brass knows exactly how much Apple's protection racket with Google costs the latter, but estimates are $13B a year, which would be a healthy chunk of either's profits.

28304283409234 4y ago

Yes. So stop using apple.

qwertyuiop_ 4y ago

https://www.googlewatchblog.de/wp-content/uploads/tim-cook-sundar-pichai.jpg https://www.googlewatchblog.de/wp-content/uploads/tim-cook-s...

gabsouki 4y ago

I made a request to DDG a few months ago to add a !kagi bang command. Still haven’t heard from them but it’s worth a try. https://duckduckgo.com/newbang https://duckduckgo.com/newbang Adding other browsers to DDG bangs would somewhat solve the problem, at least for me with Kagi.

chatmasta 4y ago
Yeah, I use these bangs too, but it also means that every query is sent to 2x search engines - DDG and the destination search. There is a Safari extension called xSearch [0] which implements bangs client side, but I uninstalled it because I noticed weird TLS errors on a few sites while it was running, and I'm generally uncomfortable with the level of access required for it to function. [0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/xsearch-for-safari/id1579902068 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/xsearch-for-safari/id157990206...
Nextgrid 4y ago
FYI, Kagi has an app that provides an extension that takes over the DDG domain (and maybe other default search engine domains) to redirect searches to Kagi. This still leaks the query to the original search engine, but it's better than nothing.

falcolas 4y ago

The following is a mitigation, not a solution. You can pick a different search engine in, and add search engines to, Firefox mobile on iOS. The picker pictured in TFA is only for mobile Safari. It uses the same renderer as Safari on iOS, but the search engine is not part of that. I imagine that mobile chrome (I don't use it) can do the same.

jkmcf 4y ago

Try "Custom Search Engine Extension for Safari" from the App Store.