7 ms·

Remote work has the potential to make neighborhoods more dynamic. With more people at home, there's more demand for nearby coffee shops, entertainment, food op

Remote work has the potential to make neighborhoods more dynamic. With more people at home, there's more demand for nearby coffee shops, entertainment, food options. I prefer the decentralized neighborhood approach to the hub and spoke model where you commute to a big city from the boring suburbs.

yieldcrv 4y ago
I would love more concentrated neighborhoods like I’ve seen in many places across Europe many other places across Europe dont have this or most people arent conveniently located but my point is that this doesn't seem to be an option at all in the US, unless you are in a nice development within one or two cities. not an option in the suburbs anywhere to my knowledge.
- landemva 4y ago
  I would be surprised to find this in suburbs, though Boulder might fit. Some wfh people have easily found it in resort mountain towns in USA, which have similarities to European resort mountain towns (outdoor activities, walkable, size constrained by geography).
- pjlegato 4y ago
  That's correct. US zoning laws have banned the construction of dense urban neighborhoods and required car-centric suburban neighborhood plans since about World War II. Mandatory density limits and setbacks and numbers of parking spaces and square feet per occupant and other zoning regulations make it illegal to build anything other than low density suburbs. Many people still want to live in a dense, walkable neighborhood, though; supply is just fixed at ~1940 levels forever. The few prewar walkable cities that still function such as New York and San Francisco are very expensive as a result. Housing that was built for and occupied by working class people for generations is now too pricey for all but the rich.
  - parineum 4y ago
    > US zoning laws... That's an incredibly broad statement since most zoning is handled on the state, county or city level. There are plenty of places in the US where someone could build an equivalent SF or NYC and yet they don't. > The few prewar walkable cities that still function such as New York and San Francisco are very expensive as a result. You seem to be drawing a causal link here, walkable leads to desirable and expensive. Yet, as I mentioned before, not only is it possible to build walkable cities in many states, there are plenty of other walkable cities that aren't expensive or desirable. I suspect that SF and NYC being the both historic and a hub of two giant economic engines of the US, the tech and financial sectors respectively, has a lot more to do with the pricing of those areas than their walkability.
    - yieldcrv 4y ago
      > I suspect that SF and NYC being the both historic and a hub of two giant economic engines of the US, the tech and financial sectors respectively, has a lot more to do with the pricing of those areas than their walkability. Demand - from various sectors over time, sure, but also geographic constraints Each are different enough to only talk about in isolation, but of the commonalities you can't dismiss how interrelated the density and walkability are. A byproduct of the geographic constraints with a constant need to fulfill the demand.
    - davidw 4y ago
      Most US zoning is pretty similar. There are exceptions like Houston, but by and large, zoning codes aren't that different from place to place. A lot of the model codes were derived from similar sources, IIRC https://islandpress.org/books/arbitrary-lines https://islandpress.org/books/arbitrary-lines has some good, if brief history of all of it.
    - jen20 4y ago
      > there are plenty of other walkable cities that aren't expensive or desirable. Can you name some of them?
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
- escapedmoose 4y ago
  I managed to find a suburban area with restaurants, groceries, and shops within walking distance in the US and it is an amazing, life-changing thing. I am never ever ever ever ever leaving. US zoning laws need to change.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Under the existing framework of zoning, you were able to find a place that well met your preferences and you never ever*4 plan to leave. From that place of extreme contentment, you conclude that zoning laws in other places need to change (emphasis yours). Interesting.
    - escapedmoose 4y ago
      Yes, because this type of area is so rare. I’ve never lived in another place like it (in the US). But it was built in the 70s, before zoning in the region got fucked. It’s a walkable oasis in a desert of stroads and strip-malls.
  - johnkpaul 4y ago
    Where are you? This sounds like a magical place of unicorns and fairies. :-)
    - selectodude 4y ago
      Most inner-ring streetcar suburbs of old major cities are like that. Nassau County in New York, the North Shore in Chicago, anything off the Green Line in Boston.
    - AtlasBarfed 4y ago
      It took some digging, but essentially they work in a university town. University towns are basically the apex example "walkable" with good restaurants, good shopping, good services, etc etc etc. The happiest existence I had lifestyle wise was living in university. It is the closest socially acceptable communal living experience in modern capitalists. There were stories of colonists captured in Indian wars by tribes, "freed", and they ran away to go back to the tribal group rather than go back to colonial life. You know, Dances with Wolves but in real life. There was a slight uptick in communalism in the early internet, but the MBAs have stamped out that out hard. Honestly, for places like San Francisco where Silicon Valley essentially destroyed the communal aspect of the city, all of those tech bros moving away would be good in the long term. Of course it would also take a massive collapse in property values, and kind of like revolution, that's never a good thing.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  > but my point is that this doesn't seem to be an option at all in the US There's quite a bit of this on the East Coast as it tends to be older. Pre-war towns in particular. Some rather affluent places too with trains to the local major city, etc. It's nice to have large single family homes and yards and be able to walk to the butcher, coffee shop, bookstore, or restaurants and the train. However, in Europe you generally won't find large, single family homes in this type of setting. Mainly multi-family and very small by American standards. Especially the UK.
  - yieldcrv 4y ago
    you might have a point, there is a lot of identical suburban sprawl throughout the east coast but is also that older setting I would need some specific examples to look at for inspiration though, and see whats wrong with them > However, in Europe you generally won't find large, single family homes in this type of setting. Mainly multi-family and very small by American standards. Especially the UK. You're right, I want the rich person's classic large Parisian apartment facing the main thoroughfare, with alleys of winding shops and cafe's in the back.
- gamechangr 4y ago
  Houston has incredibly relaxed zoning rules https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/houston-doesnt-have-zoning-there-are-workarounds https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/houston-doesnt-have-zoning...
shoulderfake 4y ago
The big problem with that is that zoning laws in america compartmentalize everything and you don't have many places with intertwined shops/markets with residential areas.
twiddling 4y ago
Then you run into local zoning. I for one would love more mixed zoning in neighborhoods on city boundaries, but too many entrenched interests at the moment
- rqtwteye 4y ago
  Zoning may change with more people working from home and wanting things closer.
- andybak 4y ago
  I live in the UK and local shops, restaurants are ubuiquitous. Is that really something that is actively legislated against in the US?
  - ahoy 4y ago
    Extensively, yes. Having housing & non-housing in the same area is rare in much of the US.
    - andybak 4y ago
      But... What happens if you've had a beer and suddenly remember you need a pint of milk for the morning? To pick an entirely not uncommon example from my own life...
      - ryukafalz 4y ago
        In much of the country, you either have it delivered or you go without it. There's commonly no reasonable way to get to a store without a car. I'm just moving to the suburbs but I had to specifically go looking for one with shops in walking distance. It's far from the norm; I've lived in places before where the only way to a shop was along a major highway and it was too far to reasonably walk unless you had no choice.
      - alexb_ 4y ago
        Then you wait until tomorrow so you can drive half an hour to the Wal Mart. Or get it delivered. There are also places like Dollar General and gas stations which sell essentials for incredibly inflated prices nearby that you could walk to (but can still be miles away)
xnx 4y ago
Urban planners and other entrenched interests are a huge obstacle to progress in the US.
- mistrial9 4y ago
  humorous way to say it, since architects and their cousins, urban planners, have had vast and creative ideas for decades, while local government, real estate sales and their colleagues, real estate lending have crushed their hopes with coffee each day. source: professional urban planning office in California
  - thegginthesky 4y ago
    Yeah, GP has no idea what they are talking about. I lived with urban planners and architects for 20 years, read books about zoning, about the effects of urbanization on aquifers and rivers, about the differences between cities that grew organically like São Paulo or Mexico City vs cities that were bulldozed to fit a central plan like NYC. Never ONCE in my life I had read contemporary literature or heard a urban planner defend suburbia, or advocate for single use zoning only, or even say neutral things about American Suburbs. A majority of Urban Planners and Architects across North America, South America and Europe (my sample) are very much against it as it's not sustainable, creates traffic and other myriad of problems.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      I agree with your comment, but: I don't think NYC was bulldozed to fit a central plan. The city's (really, just Manhattan's) street plan was developed in 1807 and finalized in 1811[1], at a time when most of the island was still wetlands and marsh. (That's not to praise the Commissioners' plan, per se, but only to observe that no dense city was bulldozed to enact it.) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioners%27_Plan_of_1811 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioners%27_Plan_of_1811
      - thegginthesky 4y ago
analog31 4y ago
The pessimist in me expects more demand for food delivery services than for walkable shops.

yieldcrv 4y ago

I would love more concentrated neighborhoods like I’ve seen in many places across Europe many other places across Europe dont have this or most people arent conveniently located but my point is that this doesn't seem to be an option at all in the US, unless you are in a nice development within one or two cities. not an option in the suburbs anywhere to my knowledge.

landemva 4y ago
I would be surprised to find this in suburbs, though Boulder might fit. Some wfh people have easily found it in resort mountain towns in USA, which have similarities to European resort mountain towns (outdoor activities, walkable, size constrained by geography).
pjlegato 4y ago
That's correct. US zoning laws have banned the construction of dense urban neighborhoods and required car-centric suburban neighborhood plans since about World War II. Mandatory density limits and setbacks and numbers of parking spaces and square feet per occupant and other zoning regulations make it illegal to build anything other than low density suburbs. Many people still want to live in a dense, walkable neighborhood, though; supply is just fixed at ~1940 levels forever. The few prewar walkable cities that still function such as New York and San Francisco are very expensive as a result. Housing that was built for and occupied by working class people for generations is now too pricey for all but the rich.
- parineum 4y ago
  > US zoning laws... That's an incredibly broad statement since most zoning is handled on the state, county or city level. There are plenty of places in the US where someone could build an equivalent SF or NYC and yet they don't. > The few prewar walkable cities that still function such as New York and San Francisco are very expensive as a result. You seem to be drawing a causal link here, walkable leads to desirable and expensive. Yet, as I mentioned before, not only is it possible to build walkable cities in many states, there are plenty of other walkable cities that aren't expensive or desirable. I suspect that SF and NYC being the both historic and a hub of two giant economic engines of the US, the tech and financial sectors respectively, has a lot more to do with the pricing of those areas than their walkability.
  - yieldcrv 4y ago
    > I suspect that SF and NYC being the both historic and a hub of two giant economic engines of the US, the tech and financial sectors respectively, has a lot more to do with the pricing of those areas than their walkability. Demand - from various sectors over time, sure, but also geographic constraints Each are different enough to only talk about in isolation, but of the commonalities you can't dismiss how interrelated the density and walkability are. A byproduct of the geographic constraints with a constant need to fulfill the demand.
  - davidw 4y ago
    Most US zoning is pretty similar. There are exceptions like Houston, but by and large, zoning codes aren't that different from place to place. A lot of the model codes were derived from similar sources, IIRC https://islandpress.org/books/arbitrary-lines https://islandpress.org/books/arbitrary-lines has some good, if brief history of all of it.
  - jen20 4y ago
    > there are plenty of other walkable cities that aren't expensive or desirable. Can you name some of them?
- SoftTalker 4y ago
escapedmoose 4y ago
I managed to find a suburban area with restaurants, groceries, and shops within walking distance in the US and it is an amazing, life-changing thing. I am never ever ever ever ever leaving. US zoning laws need to change.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Under the existing framework of zoning, you were able to find a place that well met your preferences and you never ever*4 plan to leave. From that place of extreme contentment, you conclude that zoning laws in other places need to change (emphasis yours). Interesting.
  - escapedmoose 4y ago
    Yes, because this type of area is so rare. I’ve never lived in another place like it (in the US). But it was built in the 70s, before zoning in the region got fucked. It’s a walkable oasis in a desert of stroads and strip-malls.
- johnkpaul 4y ago
  Where are you? This sounds like a magical place of unicorns and fairies. :-)
  - selectodude 4y ago
    Most inner-ring streetcar suburbs of old major cities are like that. Nassau County in New York, the North Shore in Chicago, anything off the Green Line in Boston.
  - AtlasBarfed 4y ago
    It took some digging, but essentially they work in a university town. University towns are basically the apex example "walkable" with good restaurants, good shopping, good services, etc etc etc. The happiest existence I had lifestyle wise was living in university. It is the closest socially acceptable communal living experience in modern capitalists. There were stories of colonists captured in Indian wars by tribes, "freed", and they ran away to go back to the tribal group rather than go back to colonial life. You know, Dances with Wolves but in real life. There was a slight uptick in communalism in the early internet, but the MBAs have stamped out that out hard. Honestly, for places like San Francisco where Silicon Valley essentially destroyed the communal aspect of the city, all of those tech bros moving away would be good in the long term. Of course it would also take a massive collapse in property values, and kind of like revolution, that's never a good thing.
nemo44x 4y ago
> but my point is that this doesn't seem to be an option at all in the US There's quite a bit of this on the East Coast as it tends to be older. Pre-war towns in particular. Some rather affluent places too with trains to the local major city, etc. It's nice to have large single family homes and yards and be able to walk to the butcher, coffee shop, bookstore, or restaurants and the train. However, in Europe you generally won't find large, single family homes in this type of setting. Mainly multi-family and very small by American standards. Especially the UK.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  you might have a point, there is a lot of identical suburban sprawl throughout the east coast but is also that older setting I would need some specific examples to look at for inspiration though, and see whats wrong with them > However, in Europe you generally won't find large, single family homes in this type of setting. Mainly multi-family and very small by American standards. Especially the UK. You're right, I want the rich person's classic large Parisian apartment facing the main thoroughfare, with alleys of winding shops and cafe's in the back.
gamechangr 4y ago
Houston has incredibly relaxed zoning rules https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/houston-doesnt-have-zoning-there-are-workarounds https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/houston-doesnt-have-zoning...

shoulderfake 4y ago

The big problem with that is that zoning laws in america compartmentalize everything and you don't have many places with intertwined shops/markets with residential areas.

twiddling 4y ago

Then you run into local zoning. I for one would love more mixed zoning in neighborhoods on city boundaries, but too many entrenched interests at the moment

rqtwteye 4y ago
Zoning may change with more people working from home and wanting things closer.
andybak 4y ago
I live in the UK and local shops, restaurants are ubuiquitous. Is that really something that is actively legislated against in the US?
- ahoy 4y ago
  Extensively, yes. Having housing & non-housing in the same area is rare in much of the US.
  - andybak 4y ago
    But... What happens if you've had a beer and suddenly remember you need a pint of milk for the morning? To pick an entirely not uncommon example from my own life...
    - ryukafalz 4y ago
      In much of the country, you either have it delivered or you go without it. There's commonly no reasonable way to get to a store without a car. I'm just moving to the suburbs but I had to specifically go looking for one with shops in walking distance. It's far from the norm; I've lived in places before where the only way to a shop was along a major highway and it was too far to reasonably walk unless you had no choice.
    - alexb_ 4y ago
      Then you wait until tomorrow so you can drive half an hour to the Wal Mart. Or get it delivered. There are also places like Dollar General and gas stations which sell essentials for incredibly inflated prices nearby that you could walk to (but can still be miles away)

xnx 4y ago

Urban planners and other entrenched interests are a huge obstacle to progress in the US.

mistrial9 4y ago
humorous way to say it, since architects and their cousins, urban planners, have had vast and creative ideas for decades, while local government, real estate sales and their colleagues, real estate lending have crushed their hopes with coffee each day. source: professional urban planning office in California
- thegginthesky 4y ago
  Yeah, GP has no idea what they are talking about. I lived with urban planners and architects for 20 years, read books about zoning, about the effects of urbanization on aquifers and rivers, about the differences between cities that grew organically like São Paulo or Mexico City vs cities that were bulldozed to fit a central plan like NYC. Never ONCE in my life I had read contemporary literature or heard a urban planner defend suburbia, or advocate for single use zoning only, or even say neutral things about American Suburbs. A majority of Urban Planners and Architects across North America, South America and Europe (my sample) are very much against it as it's not sustainable, creates traffic and other myriad of problems.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    I agree with your comment, but: I don't think NYC was bulldozed to fit a central plan. The city's (really, just Manhattan's) street plan was developed in 1807 and finalized in 1811[1], at a time when most of the island was still wetlands and marsh. (That's not to praise the Commissioners' plan, per se, but only to observe that no dense city was bulldozed to enact it.) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioners%27_Plan_of_1811 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioners%27_Plan_of_1811
    - thegginthesky 4y ago

analog31 4y ago

The pessimist in me expects more demand for food delivery services than for walkable shops.