4 ms·

What does it matter how a family sleeps as long as it works well for the family? Edit: And is it an "obsession" or simply a cultural difference?

pessimizer 4y ago
> as long as it works well for the family? It's easier for the family when the child is in the room with the parents. At least in the same way it is easier to have a master bathroom rather than one on the other side of the house. > is it an "obsession" or simply a cultural difference? It was an imposed cultural difference. American parents were told they would hurt their children if they slept in the same room with them, or attended to them too quickly when they cried. So they changed their behavior in order to conform.
- lazide 4y ago
  SIDS data shows a (relatively) high occurrence of kids dying by having parents roll over on them, or them getting entrapped/suffocated in bedding. In traditional cultures, this usually gets covered up. Additionally, it’s much harder for the parents or kids to get consistent sleep (often already causing a lot of difficulties during this time), when toddler age kids are in the same area, due to differing schedules. In the US, due to mainly socio-economic issues (need to migrate for work often results in families separated over long distances), it is relatively uncommon to have relatives living in the same household able to help with childcare too, especially late at night. So it puts a lot more load on the parents. If not managed effectively, this can break the parents in ways no one likes to talk about in polite company.
  - anon291 4y ago
    If you and your spouse are of healthy weight and the mother breastfeeds all night and the bed is stripped of heavy bedding and pillows this is unlikely. I wish doctors would give parents this advice because what happens now is that many American parents will cosleep without admitting it and don't know what to do when they engage in it. In many traditional cultures, the baby is breastfed all night and the bed is stripped and beds are on the floor. If you do these , sids risk is greatly diminished. Some of the cosleep studies on sids are flawed. They conflate taking a baby onto a couch to sleep with an exhausted mother the same as a breastfeeding mother falling asleep with her child on a flat surface. But Americans are obsessed with cribs so doctors don't give any advice and conflate two unlike things. https://cosleeping.nd.edu/safe-co-sleeping-guidelines/ https://cosleeping.nd.edu/safe-co-sleeping-guidelines/ https://news.nd.edu/news/infant-co-sleeping-expert-sheds-light-on-controversial-practice/ https://news.nd.edu/news/infant-co-sleeping-expert-sheds-lig...
    - lazide 4y ago
      Considering nearly zero Americans are of healthy weight right now (obesity rate over 42%), even if you don’t consider stress eating that often happens with a new baby - just limiting by healthy weight or not is going to bias any results towards a pretty small group of people.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Considering nearly zero Americans are of healthy weight right now (obesity rate over 42%) Apparently, “nearly zero” are mathematically literate, too.
        lazide 4y ago
        Obesity is 'you're going to die an early death because you're overweight'. It is the polar opposite of a healthy weight, but there is a lot of red in the gap. You might not be aware of that? It's one of those uncomfortable truths no one likes talking about. Even Dr's won't usually mention it to patients. 73.6% of American Adults over 20 years old are overweight. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity-adult-17-18/obesity-adult.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity-adult-17-18/obe... 26.4% of the American population is not overweight. I didn't correlate to eating disorders resulting in people being under weight - I've seen a decent amount of that too. Probably 5 to maybe even 10%. I'm struggling to see how that isn't a pretty select cohort that is a healthy weight, no? Anecdotally, most Americans consider me lean and athletic - I'm a good 20 lbs overweight by reasonable historic standards, but not obese. The overton window has shifted a lot, but our bodies and what is healthy for us are no different.
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Obesity is 'you're going to die an early death because you're overweight'. No, its not. Even morbidly obese doesn’t mean that, though it statistically correlates with a greater reduction in expected lifespan. > 73.6% of American Adults over 20 years old are overweight. [...] I didn't correlate to eating disorders resulting in people being under weight - I've seen a decent amount of that too. Probably 5 to maybe even 10%. 1.6% of adults over 20, actually, using 2018 numbers. [0] At any rate, even if it was your 5-10%, not enough to make the “at a healthy weight” number close to 0 (even if underweight was relevant in context of being more likely to suffocate an infant, which I would hazard a guess it is not.) [0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/underweight-adult-17-18/underweight-adult.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/underweight-adult-17-18...
  - voisin 4y ago
    > SIDS data shows a (relatively) high occurrence of kids dying by having parents roll over on them, or them getting entrapped/suffocated in bedding Source?
    - lazide 4y ago
      https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/1/e2022057991/188305/Evidence-Base-for-2022-Updated-Recommendations-for https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/1/e20220...
  - Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
    As far as I'm aware, rolling over and suffocating is NOT SIDS. With SIDS, the cause is undetermined. This is also a weird presumption: go to bed when the kids go to sleep and wake up early. You get the same amount of sleep and a free morning. > SIDS: A disorder marked by the sudden and unexpected death of a healthy child who is younger than one year old, usually during sleep. The cause of sudden infant death syndrome is not known. Also called crib death and SIDS
    - lazide 4y ago
      'Unexplained' is a large portion of SIDS deaths. Folks trying to protect parents and the family from blame for 'preventable' deaths is also a thing. As SIDS is better understood, and categorization is changing (addressed in the paper I linked elsewhere) the graph showing proportions of accidental suffocation/strangulation during sleep is rising while SIDS is dropping - but both numbers are adding up to about the same. (see total SUID death rate, Figure 1) https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/1/e2022057991/188305/Evidence-Base-for-2022-Updated-Recommendations-for https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/1/e20220...
      - Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
        Is this basically suggesting that all SIDS are essentially suffocation (or close to that?)
        lazide 4y ago
        Nope, the paper goes into it. It's saying some proportion is, but it's unknown (and likely unknowable) what the actual proportion really is, for a multitude of reasons. It's unlikely to be most. There are a lot of similar issues with mortality data in general, but kids are a particularly sensitive topic. For instamce, a large portion of 'gun cleaning accidents' are suicides. How many has changed with the times and the fashions. It's possible to guesstimate approximately of course, but we'll never really know for sure unless we somehow plunked an invisible researcher over the shoulder of every person all day every day.
- jjulius 4y ago
  >It's easier for the family when the child is in the room with the parents. At least in the same way it is easier to have a master bathroom rather than one on the other side of the house. Up to a point, sure. One common scenario is for newborns to sleep in their own crib/basinet/whathaveyou in the parent's room for a short time, before moving into their own room. Many people don't sleep train until their children are at least six months, if not much older. Other parents will keep them in their beds. I have two children under the age of three and, anecdotally, where and how parents decide to have their children sleep is really all over the board because it boils down to what works best for the family. And I think it's really stupid, unfair and short-sighted to judge other parents for their decisions in this area.
  - voisin 4y ago
    > I think it's really stupid, unfair and short-sighted to judge other parents for their decisions in this area. I would expand this to [in any area]. We need to adopt more of a “whatever works for the family” attitude rather than a one size fits all attitude.
    - jjulius 4y ago
      Completely agreed. If the children and parents are happy and healthy, whatever is happening in their home is working for them and it's absolutely not my place to question it. Everybody is different.
  - meepmorp 4y ago
    Also, children are wildly different! My elder slept terribly for about 3 months, until we gave up on trying to cosleep, and slept for almost 6 hours straight when we put him down by himself for the first time. The younger liked co-sleeping and transitioning to a separate room was much harder.
alfred_wram 4y ago
> as it works well for the family I understand the argument to be that it doesn't work well for the baby. That they experience a form of abandonment because their brains are wired to equate abandonment with the absence of close contact. They're very dependent on the proximity of a caregiver.
anon291 4y ago
It's an obsession because pediatricians insist upon it while offering no advice on co sleeping despite that being the most common arrangement worldwide. It's also extremely common in the United States despite parents not admitting to it. Unfortunately, being given no information, the American parents who cosleep go on blind and don't know what precautions to take. But yeah, it's an obsession because it's pushed despite the fact the arrangement is incredibly uncommon worldwide. As for the last question.... I don't care. In fact I ask the same thing when people act as if co sleeping is some great evil
- voisin 4y ago
  I answered in another comment, but at least in British Columbia, Canada, new mothers are given advise as to how to co-sleep safely.

pessimizer 4y ago

> as long as it works well for the family? It's easier for the family when the child is in the room with the parents. At least in the same way it is easier to have a master bathroom rather than one on the other side of the house. > is it an "obsession" or simply a cultural difference? It was an imposed cultural difference. American parents were told they would hurt their children if they slept in the same room with them, or attended to them too quickly when they cried. So they changed their behavior in order to conform.

lazide 4y ago
SIDS data shows a (relatively) high occurrence of kids dying by having parents roll over on them, or them getting entrapped/suffocated in bedding. In traditional cultures, this usually gets covered up. Additionally, it’s much harder for the parents or kids to get consistent sleep (often already causing a lot of difficulties during this time), when toddler age kids are in the same area, due to differing schedules. In the US, due to mainly socio-economic issues (need to migrate for work often results in families separated over long distances), it is relatively uncommon to have relatives living in the same household able to help with childcare too, especially late at night. So it puts a lot more load on the parents. If not managed effectively, this can break the parents in ways no one likes to talk about in polite company.
- anon291 4y ago
  If you and your spouse are of healthy weight and the mother breastfeeds all night and the bed is stripped of heavy bedding and pillows this is unlikely. I wish doctors would give parents this advice because what happens now is that many American parents will cosleep without admitting it and don't know what to do when they engage in it. In many traditional cultures, the baby is breastfed all night and the bed is stripped and beds are on the floor. If you do these , sids risk is greatly diminished. Some of the cosleep studies on sids are flawed. They conflate taking a baby onto a couch to sleep with an exhausted mother the same as a breastfeeding mother falling asleep with her child on a flat surface. But Americans are obsessed with cribs so doctors don't give any advice and conflate two unlike things. https://cosleeping.nd.edu/safe-co-sleeping-guidelines/ https://cosleeping.nd.edu/safe-co-sleeping-guidelines/ https://news.nd.edu/news/infant-co-sleeping-expert-sheds-light-on-controversial-practice/ https://news.nd.edu/news/infant-co-sleeping-expert-sheds-lig...
  - lazide 4y ago
    Considering nearly zero Americans are of healthy weight right now (obesity rate over 42%), even if you don’t consider stress eating that often happens with a new baby - just limiting by healthy weight or not is going to bias any results towards a pretty small group of people.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Considering nearly zero Americans are of healthy weight right now (obesity rate over 42%) Apparently, “nearly zero” are mathematically literate, too.
      - lazide 4y ago
        Obesity is 'you're going to die an early death because you're overweight'. It is the polar opposite of a healthy weight, but there is a lot of red in the gap. You might not be aware of that? It's one of those uncomfortable truths no one likes talking about. Even Dr's won't usually mention it to patients. 73.6% of American Adults over 20 years old are overweight. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity-adult-17-18/obesity-adult.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity-adult-17-18/obe... 26.4% of the American population is not overweight. I didn't correlate to eating disorders resulting in people being under weight - I've seen a decent amount of that too. Probably 5 to maybe even 10%. I'm struggling to see how that isn't a pretty select cohort that is a healthy weight, no? Anecdotally, most Americans consider me lean and athletic - I'm a good 20 lbs overweight by reasonable historic standards, but not obese. The overton window has shifted a lot, but our bodies and what is healthy for us are no different.
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Obesity is 'you're going to die an early death because you're overweight'. No, its not. Even morbidly obese doesn’t mean that, though it statistically correlates with a greater reduction in expected lifespan. > 73.6% of American Adults over 20 years old are overweight. [...] I didn't correlate to eating disorders resulting in people being under weight - I've seen a decent amount of that too. Probably 5 to maybe even 10%. 1.6% of adults over 20, actually, using 2018 numbers. [0] At any rate, even if it was your 5-10%, not enough to make the “at a healthy weight” number close to 0 (even if underweight was relevant in context of being more likely to suffocate an infant, which I would hazard a guess it is not.) [0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/underweight-adult-17-18/underweight-adult.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/underweight-adult-17-18...
- voisin 4y ago
  > SIDS data shows a (relatively) high occurrence of kids dying by having parents roll over on them, or them getting entrapped/suffocated in bedding Source?
  - lazide 4y ago
    https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/1/e2022057991/188305/Evidence-Base-for-2022-Updated-Recommendations-for https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/1/e20220...
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
  As far as I'm aware, rolling over and suffocating is NOT SIDS. With SIDS, the cause is undetermined. This is also a weird presumption: go to bed when the kids go to sleep and wake up early. You get the same amount of sleep and a free morning. > SIDS: A disorder marked by the sudden and unexpected death of a healthy child who is younger than one year old, usually during sleep. The cause of sudden infant death syndrome is not known. Also called crib death and SIDS
  - lazide 4y ago
    'Unexplained' is a large portion of SIDS deaths. Folks trying to protect parents and the family from blame for 'preventable' deaths is also a thing. As SIDS is better understood, and categorization is changing (addressed in the paper I linked elsewhere) the graph showing proportions of accidental suffocation/strangulation during sleep is rising while SIDS is dropping - but both numbers are adding up to about the same. (see total SUID death rate, Figure 1) https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/1/e2022057991/188305/Evidence-Base-for-2022-Updated-Recommendations-for https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/1/e20220...
    - Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
      Is this basically suggesting that all SIDS are essentially suffocation (or close to that?)
      - lazide 4y ago
        Nope, the paper goes into it. It's saying some proportion is, but it's unknown (and likely unknowable) what the actual proportion really is, for a multitude of reasons. It's unlikely to be most. There are a lot of similar issues with mortality data in general, but kids are a particularly sensitive topic. For instamce, a large portion of 'gun cleaning accidents' are suicides. How many has changed with the times and the fashions. It's possible to guesstimate approximately of course, but we'll never really know for sure unless we somehow plunked an invisible researcher over the shoulder of every person all day every day.
jjulius 4y ago
>It's easier for the family when the child is in the room with the parents. At least in the same way it is easier to have a master bathroom rather than one on the other side of the house. Up to a point, sure. One common scenario is for newborns to sleep in their own crib/basinet/whathaveyou in the parent's room for a short time, before moving into their own room. Many people don't sleep train until their children are at least six months, if not much older. Other parents will keep them in their beds. I have two children under the age of three and, anecdotally, where and how parents decide to have their children sleep is really all over the board because it boils down to what works best for the family. And I think it's really stupid, unfair and short-sighted to judge other parents for their decisions in this area.
- voisin 4y ago
  > I think it's really stupid, unfair and short-sighted to judge other parents for their decisions in this area. I would expand this to [in any area]. We need to adopt more of a “whatever works for the family” attitude rather than a one size fits all attitude.
  - jjulius 4y ago
    Completely agreed. If the children and parents are happy and healthy, whatever is happening in their home is working for them and it's absolutely not my place to question it. Everybody is different.
- meepmorp 4y ago
  Also, children are wildly different! My elder slept terribly for about 3 months, until we gave up on trying to cosleep, and slept for almost 6 hours straight when we put him down by himself for the first time. The younger liked co-sleeping and transitioning to a separate room was much harder.

alfred_wram 4y ago

> as it works well for the family I understand the argument to be that it doesn't work well for the baby. That they experience a form of abandonment because their brains are wired to equate abandonment with the absence of close contact. They're very dependent on the proximity of a caregiver.

anon291 4y ago

It's an obsession because pediatricians insist upon it while offering no advice on co sleeping despite that being the most common arrangement worldwide. It's also extremely common in the United States despite parents not admitting to it. Unfortunately, being given no information, the American parents who cosleep go on blind and don't know what precautions to take. But yeah, it's an obsession because it's pushed despite the fact the arrangement is incredibly uncommon worldwide. As for the last question.... I don't care. In fact I ask the same thing when people act as if co sleeping is some great evil

voisin 4y ago
I answered in another comment, but at least in British Columbia, Canada, new mothers are given advise as to how to co-sleep safely.