4 ms·

The article contains neither the word 'unexplained' nor 'reference'. What it says is "unexamined expectation", which I think is clearer and not an unreasonable

by pm215 4y ago

The article contains neither the word 'unexplained' nor 'reference'. What it says is "unexamined expectation", which I think is clearer and not an unreasonable thing for somebody in the industry to be irritated about. Yes, you probably have a "vending machine failure" story -- but it might have been years or decades ago, and you have an awful lot more successful-purchase experiences you don't think about. So bringing an expectation of failure to every vending machine transaction is not entirely rational, and it does ignore efforts to improve reliability.

JoeAltmaier 4y ago
Sorry, Vending people hated it, he explained to me, this unexamined expectation of mechanical failure. The same meaning far as I can tell. How can anybody doubt that vending machines suck? With the mountain of experience and anecdotes. Hardly anything has been more examined, has had so many failures as to to build an expectation. Once burned; twice cautious. Or 100 times cautious in this case.
- wpietri 4y ago
  It is a different meaning. People are being asked to think about their expectation. So let me examine mine. The last time I had a vending machine failure was maybe 15 years ago. Not sure how many times I've used them since, but maybe once a month on average. So my personal failure rate is well below 1%. And if he's right that vending machines have improved, perhaps my current/future rate is well lower. Are the failures memorable? Sure. Super frustrating. But at least in my experience, they work just fine. So although I too would laugh at a vending machine joke, I get why he feels the stereotype is unfair. My failure rate with computer software is much higher; I'd guess I have an app crash or a reportable bug about daily these days.
  - Animats 4y ago
    > The last time I had a vending machine failure was maybe 15 years ago. Vending machines became much more reliable once electronics for checking was added. The spiral wire pushers now have an infrared beam across the delivery area. If something doesn't fall, there's no beam break, the software notices, and the spiral gets turned a bit more. If there's still no object detected, the program returns the money and marks that row as empty.
    - IIsi50MHz 4y ago
      I wish these advancements were more common. )-: Not only do I still see people struggle with failures, some machines seem to have received as their only upgrades a card reader and maybe a camera. Anecdata: one recent failure I'd never seen before is that a machine's card reader started charging $5 USD per transaction on top the advertised price. This showed up only on users' transaction records, but not on the machine itself.. The vendor blamed the credit card processing company, and the building's management taped an "OUT OF ORDER" sign over the card reader for a couple weeks while it got fixed. The people who noticed the overcharge and complained got refunded, but I don't know about the rest.
  - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
    That explains it. I've stopped using vending machines about that long ago. So my experience was with the older machines. Which doesn't make my experience wrong; just out of date. And yes that comment about super frustrating is right. You dug around for coin or currency the machine will accept then got cheated, you were out of luck. Wasted 2 or three minutes and you're frustrated and still hungry/thirsty and out of options. Probably why the memories stayed fresh so long.
- pm215 4y ago
  I think the difference is significant. If he says it's an "unexplained reference" to unreliability he would be saying "everybody knows the machines are great, I don't understand why the heck the journo brought up unreliability when they had a trouble free transaction", which would be pretty living-in-a-bubble. Talking about an "unexamined expectation", on the other hand, is "I know that many people approach vending machines assuming they all suck and a malfunction is a likely outcome, but in the industry we think this isn't a correct view of modern machines and it would be nice if people updated their priors". '100 times cautious' seems to me a pretty good example of an unexamined expectation...
- Lio 4y ago
  I think I've had more machines refuse to accept my coins than refuse to give me change after a purchase. Given how many fake coins are in circulation that are good enough to fool a fool like me that's probably not too unexpected.
  - lovehashbrowns 4y ago
    Back in the olden days when you got a crisp bill and saved it specifically in case you needed to get something from a vending machine later on. Those were good days! I don't think I've carried cash for many years now. Was kind of an issue in San Francisco where some restaurants still didn't accept card payments.
    - Lio 4y ago
      These days I find I rarely even keep credit/debit cards on me. I’ve got so used to using Apple Pay with my phone, it works pretty much everywhere in the UK. I guess the next wave for me will be setting up a smartwatch with Garmin Pay.
  - Animats 4y ago
    There's a long history of coin detection. A company called National Rejectors developed the first coin rejector that was any good, and dominated the business until their patents ran out. You can still buy a standard National Rejectors coin unit on eBay. It's a very clever little piece of machinery, about six inches square and an inch thick. Size, weight, bounce, and magnetic properties are checked, and nickels, dimes, and quarters are sorted. One of the classics of mid 20th century mechanical design.
m463 4y ago
The "unexamined expectation" cuts two ways though. My eyes were opened once I found out that those "claw and stuffed toy" machines were not based on skill - the grabbing strength of the claw was only strong once in a while - controlled by software.
antifa 4y ago
> but it might have been years or decades ago, I'll assume the reason it was decades ago is going to be because things that were $0.25 are now $2.00.

by pm215 4y ago

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

Sorry, Vending people hated it, he explained to me, this unexamined expectation of mechanical failure. The same meaning far as I can tell. How can anybody doubt that vending machines suck? With the mountain of experience and anecdotes. Hardly anything has been more examined, has had so many failures as to to build an expectation. Once burned; twice cautious. Or 100 times cautious in this case.

wpietri 4y ago
It is a different meaning. People are being asked to think about their expectation. So let me examine mine. The last time I had a vending machine failure was maybe 15 years ago. Not sure how many times I've used them since, but maybe once a month on average. So my personal failure rate is well below 1%. And if he's right that vending machines have improved, perhaps my current/future rate is well lower. Are the failures memorable? Sure. Super frustrating. But at least in my experience, they work just fine. So although I too would laugh at a vending machine joke, I get why he feels the stereotype is unfair. My failure rate with computer software is much higher; I'd guess I have an app crash or a reportable bug about daily these days.
- Animats 4y ago
  > The last time I had a vending machine failure was maybe 15 years ago. Vending machines became much more reliable once electronics for checking was added. The spiral wire pushers now have an infrared beam across the delivery area. If something doesn't fall, there's no beam break, the software notices, and the spiral gets turned a bit more. If there's still no object detected, the program returns the money and marks that row as empty.
  - IIsi50MHz 4y ago
    I wish these advancements were more common. )-: Not only do I still see people struggle with failures, some machines seem to have received as their only upgrades a card reader and maybe a camera. Anecdata: one recent failure I'd never seen before is that a machine's card reader started charging $5 USD per transaction on top the advertised price. This showed up only on users' transaction records, but not on the machine itself.. The vendor blamed the credit card processing company, and the building's management taped an "OUT OF ORDER" sign over the card reader for a couple weeks while it got fixed. The people who noticed the overcharge and complained got refunded, but I don't know about the rest.
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  That explains it. I've stopped using vending machines about that long ago. So my experience was with the older machines. Which doesn't make my experience wrong; just out of date. And yes that comment about super frustrating is right. You dug around for coin or currency the machine will accept then got cheated, you were out of luck. Wasted 2 or three minutes and you're frustrated and still hungry/thirsty and out of options. Probably why the memories stayed fresh so long.
pm215 4y ago
I think the difference is significant. If he says it's an "unexplained reference" to unreliability he would be saying "everybody knows the machines are great, I don't understand why the heck the journo brought up unreliability when they had a trouble free transaction", which would be pretty living-in-a-bubble. Talking about an "unexamined expectation", on the other hand, is "I know that many people approach vending machines assuming they all suck and a malfunction is a likely outcome, but in the industry we think this isn't a correct view of modern machines and it would be nice if people updated their priors". '100 times cautious' seems to me a pretty good example of an unexamined expectation...
Lio 4y ago
I think I've had more machines refuse to accept my coins than refuse to give me change after a purchase. Given how many fake coins are in circulation that are good enough to fool a fool like me that's probably not too unexpected.
- lovehashbrowns 4y ago
  Back in the olden days when you got a crisp bill and saved it specifically in case you needed to get something from a vending machine later on. Those were good days! I don't think I've carried cash for many years now. Was kind of an issue in San Francisco where some restaurants still didn't accept card payments.
  - Lio 4y ago
    These days I find I rarely even keep credit/debit cards on me. I’ve got so used to using Apple Pay with my phone, it works pretty much everywhere in the UK. I guess the next wave for me will be setting up a smartwatch with Garmin Pay.
- Animats 4y ago
  There's a long history of coin detection. A company called National Rejectors developed the first coin rejector that was any good, and dominated the business until their patents ran out. You can still buy a standard National Rejectors coin unit on eBay. It's a very clever little piece of machinery, about six inches square and an inch thick. Size, weight, bounce, and magnetic properties are checked, and nickels, dimes, and quarters are sorted. One of the classics of mid 20th century mechanical design.

m463 4y ago

The "unexamined expectation" cuts two ways though. My eyes were opened once I found out that those "claw and stuffed toy" machines were not based on skill - the grabbing strength of the claw was only strong once in a while - controlled by software.

antifa 4y ago

> but it might have been years or decades ago, I'll assume the reason it was decades ago is going to be because things that were $0.25 are now $2.00.