4 ms·

The point isn't to justify slavery as cultural diversity but to be able to sell a more equitable model that is realistic given widespread values in the region.

The point isn't to justify slavery as cultural diversity but to be able to sell a more equitable model that is realistic given widespread values in the region. And one that does not inadvertently lead to more harm. As well as address the details of implementation and oversight.

blagie 4y ago
I actually hate the language of "more equitable model that is realistic given widespread values in the region." Ending slavery isn't controversial. Western notions of equity are, in both gross and subtle ways. If I: - work harder than you; - have greater aptitude; - have richer, more educated parents; - have better / more culturally-aligned social skills; - have a wealthier social network; - have higher test scores / university pedigree; - have better ethics; and / or - am more ambitious, greedy, and motivated than you What should are relative outcomes be? Cultures differ here. Some would like more equal outcomes. Some would like more meritocratic outcomes (for different definitions of 'merit'). Some would like more laissez faire / libertarian / freedom-oriented outcomes (e.g. preservation of property rights). That's okay. I'm not a cultural relativist on ending slavery. I do respect diversity on concepts like what "equity" means. I think narrow, targeted interventions could work well around slavery, but would break down the instant those were perceived to touch on LGBTQ, women's rights, religion, equity, or a swarm of other issues around values. On the other hand, omitting at least a few of those, I'm unlikely to make headway in the West. That's not to mention economic / corporate issues, like IP rights.
- SyzygistSix 4y ago
  >Ending slavery isn't controversial Of course it isn't. What is not obvious is what replaces it that isn't de facto slavery or even reduces opportunities for people so that they are exploited elsewhere. Nor how the replacement is monitored for effectiveness and compliance. It is easy to say that slavery is bad and make it illegal. Fixing the actual problems in monarchies/dictatorships and impoverished countries with little opportunity is not easy or simple. The fact that a lot of slaves are not technically slaves but officially and legally "employed" makes the issue pretty plain to see. How do you see the solution to compliance in Middle Eastern monarchies and even in Western democracies where it is already illegal but happens none the less? I assume you are going to go out and implement these right away if it is so easy and obvious. You are looking for equitable solutions in places that explicitly do not value them. Improving that is hard, if it is not already obvious.
  - blagie 4y ago
    I don't have a solution -- which is why I called for a discussion -- but in this specific context, I think a lot of this comes back to framing this with regards to local value systems. This is a good starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery Another good starting point is prestige and how it impacts perceptions of individuals involved. A lot of the framing in this discussion carry a lot of Western baggage which is likely to rub people the wrong way in the Middle East. I can think of several solutions which I think could at least be more effective than what the West is doing; I do think there is room for prestige projects here. I'm not sure how helpful that would be, since in terms of "implementing," I don't know any Saudi royalty. Do you?

blagie 4y ago

I actually hate the language of "more equitable model that is realistic given widespread values in the region." Ending slavery isn't controversial. Western notions of equity are, in both gross and subtle ways. If I: - work harder than you; - have greater aptitude; - have richer, more educated parents; - have better / more culturally-aligned social skills; - have a wealthier social network; - have higher test scores / university pedigree; - have better ethics; and / or - am more ambitious, greedy, and motivated than you What should are relative outcomes be? Cultures differ here. Some would like more equal outcomes. Some would like more meritocratic outcomes (for different definitions of 'merit'). Some would like more laissez faire / libertarian / freedom-oriented outcomes (e.g. preservation of property rights). That's okay. I'm not a cultural relativist on ending slavery. I do respect diversity on concepts like what "equity" means. I think narrow, targeted interventions could work well around slavery, but would break down the instant those were perceived to touch on LGBTQ, women's rights, religion, equity, or a swarm of other issues around values. On the other hand, omitting at least a few of those, I'm unlikely to make headway in the West. That's not to mention economic / corporate issues, like IP rights.

SyzygistSix 4y ago
>Ending slavery isn't controversial Of course it isn't. What is not obvious is what replaces it that isn't de facto slavery or even reduces opportunities for people so that they are exploited elsewhere. Nor how the replacement is monitored for effectiveness and compliance. It is easy to say that slavery is bad and make it illegal. Fixing the actual problems in monarchies/dictatorships and impoverished countries with little opportunity is not easy or simple. The fact that a lot of slaves are not technically slaves but officially and legally "employed" makes the issue pretty plain to see. How do you see the solution to compliance in Middle Eastern monarchies and even in Western democracies where it is already illegal but happens none the less? I assume you are going to go out and implement these right away if it is so easy and obvious. You are looking for equitable solutions in places that explicitly do not value them. Improving that is hard, if it is not already obvious.
- blagie 4y ago
  I don't have a solution -- which is why I called for a discussion -- but in this specific context, I think a lot of this comes back to framing this with regards to local value systems. This is a good starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery Another good starting point is prestige and how it impacts perceptions of individuals involved. A lot of the framing in this discussion carry a lot of Western baggage which is likely to rub people the wrong way in the Middle East. I can think of several solutions which I think could at least be more effective than what the West is doing; I do think there is room for prestige projects here. I'm not sure how helpful that would be, since in terms of "implementing," I don't know any Saudi royalty. Do you?