4 ms·

Considering your mention of cultural diversity in the context of slavery I can't interpret this other than as mere preference. But there are actual victims of

Considering your mention of cultural diversity in the context of slavery I can't interpret this other than as mere preference. But there are actual victims of this cultural diversity, and cultural imperialism which destroys such cultures as have victims would be strongly preferable to the continued existence of such cultures.

extasia 4y ago
Agreed. Personally I'm fine with cultural imperialism if it means _less slavery_. Not all cultures are equal.
wincy 4y ago
Okay but we agreed it was wrong and basically forced the Aztecs to stop sacrificing people to their sun god. I don’t think you’ll find a sane individual today advocating for child sacrifice to make sure the sun comes up in the morning. The Aztecs certainly would have preferred to keep being on top and brutalizing the other tribes around them. Is this a lack of cultural diversity? When do we stop respecting cultural diversity and step in to do what we believe to be the right thing?
- bigbillheck 4y ago
  I think you might have some incorrect notions about the motivations of the conquistadores.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Hate to break it to you, but they didn’t work millions of Aztecs to death in the mines to save them from human sacrifice.
pas 4y ago
As an additional data point. Qatar and the building of the stadiums. Migrant workers kept in absolute inhumane conditions and worked to death in the heat. If a culture is okay with that maybe it's okay to want to nudge that culture to change. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnAER5JHHjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnAER5JHHjo
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Those games should have been boycotted by any country that is a signatory to various anti-slavery declarations. Instead they were used to whitewash the reputation of the government.
  - pas 4y ago
    It's a "private event", after all FIFA is just a big trade group, that happens to have a de facto monopoly. I think the correct course of action would be to "tax the shit out of that" too. (Just as with all the other stuff mentioned in the comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34172394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34172394) But of course it's never the right time to do that, as currently half the EU is trying to suck their dick for a bit more natural gas. :/
SyzygistSix 4y ago
The point isn't to justify slavery as cultural diversity but to be able to sell a more equitable model that is realistic given widespread values in the region. And one that does not inadvertently lead to more harm. As well as address the details of implementation and oversight.
- blagie 4y ago
  I actually hate the language of "more equitable model that is realistic given widespread values in the region." Ending slavery isn't controversial. Western notions of equity are, in both gross and subtle ways. If I: - work harder than you; - have greater aptitude; - have richer, more educated parents; - have better / more culturally-aligned social skills; - have a wealthier social network; - have higher test scores / university pedigree; - have better ethics; and / or - am more ambitious, greedy, and motivated than you What should are relative outcomes be? Cultures differ here. Some would like more equal outcomes. Some would like more meritocratic outcomes (for different definitions of 'merit'). Some would like more laissez faire / libertarian / freedom-oriented outcomes (e.g. preservation of property rights). That's okay. I'm not a cultural relativist on ending slavery. I do respect diversity on concepts like what "equity" means. I think narrow, targeted interventions could work well around slavery, but would break down the instant those were perceived to touch on LGBTQ, women's rights, religion, equity, or a swarm of other issues around values. On the other hand, omitting at least a few of those, I'm unlikely to make headway in the West. That's not to mention economic / corporate issues, like IP rights.
  - SyzygistSix 4y ago
    >Ending slavery isn't controversial Of course it isn't. What is not obvious is what replaces it that isn't de facto slavery or even reduces opportunities for people so that they are exploited elsewhere. Nor how the replacement is monitored for effectiveness and compliance. It is easy to say that slavery is bad and make it illegal. Fixing the actual problems in monarchies/dictatorships and impoverished countries with little opportunity is not easy or simple. The fact that a lot of slaves are not technically slaves but officially and legally "employed" makes the issue pretty plain to see. How do you see the solution to compliance in Middle Eastern monarchies and even in Western democracies where it is already illegal but happens none the less? I assume you are going to go out and implement these right away if it is so easy and obvious. You are looking for equitable solutions in places that explicitly do not value them. Improving that is hard, if it is not already obvious.
blagie 4y ago
US culture has victims in cages on the border with Mexico, victims in Gitmo, victims being locked up in prison due to racism, and about a million victims in Iraq/Syria. Not to mention most of global warming is from rich people. Are you okay destroying US culture? Or are you an apologist for our racist justice system? Would, as you put it "cultural imperialism which destroys such cultures as have victims would be strongly preferable to the continued existence of such cultures" in the context of Western culture? See what I did there? If the point I tried to make above isn't clear: * The point isn't to say slavery is okay -- it's obviously not -- but a lot of stuff in every culture is not okay. * A lot of other stuff in every culture is not okay as perceived by other cultures (especially around sex, gender, and religion), but comes down to values. * And a lot of other stuff is beautiful, unique, and good. Western cultural imperialist interventions haven't worked out well in the past. I'm glad to write more about that too. Even if you -- as most of these comments seem to -- believe that Western culture is superior, culturally imperialist interventions haven't led to the outcome you want. What interventions are you proposing, and why would you believe they would work any better here?

extasia 4y ago

Agreed. Personally I'm fine with cultural imperialism if it means _less slavery_. Not all cultures are equal.

wincy 4y ago

Okay but we agreed it was wrong and basically forced the Aztecs to stop sacrificing people to their sun god. I don’t think you’ll find a sane individual today advocating for child sacrifice to make sure the sun comes up in the morning. The Aztecs certainly would have preferred to keep being on top and brutalizing the other tribes around them. Is this a lack of cultural diversity? When do we stop respecting cultural diversity and step in to do what we believe to be the right thing?

bigbillheck 4y ago
I think you might have some incorrect notions about the motivations of the conquistadores.
Spooky23 4y ago
Hate to break it to you, but they didn’t work millions of Aztecs to death in the mines to save them from human sacrifice.

pas 4y ago

As an additional data point. Qatar and the building of the stadiums. Migrant workers kept in absolute inhumane conditions and worked to death in the heat. If a culture is okay with that maybe it's okay to want to nudge that culture to change. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnAER5JHHjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnAER5JHHjo

jacquesm 4y ago
Those games should have been boycotted by any country that is a signatory to various anti-slavery declarations. Instead they were used to whitewash the reputation of the government.
- pas 4y ago
  It's a "private event", after all FIFA is just a big trade group, that happens to have a de facto monopoly. I think the correct course of action would be to "tax the shit out of that" too. (Just as with all the other stuff mentioned in the comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34172394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34172394) But of course it's never the right time to do that, as currently half the EU is trying to suck their dick for a bit more natural gas. :/

SyzygistSix 4y ago

The point isn't to justify slavery as cultural diversity but to be able to sell a more equitable model that is realistic given widespread values in the region. And one that does not inadvertently lead to more harm. As well as address the details of implementation and oversight.

blagie 4y ago
I actually hate the language of "more equitable model that is realistic given widespread values in the region." Ending slavery isn't controversial. Western notions of equity are, in both gross and subtle ways. If I: - work harder than you; - have greater aptitude; - have richer, more educated parents; - have better / more culturally-aligned social skills; - have a wealthier social network; - have higher test scores / university pedigree; - have better ethics; and / or - am more ambitious, greedy, and motivated than you What should are relative outcomes be? Cultures differ here. Some would like more equal outcomes. Some would like more meritocratic outcomes (for different definitions of 'merit'). Some would like more laissez faire / libertarian / freedom-oriented outcomes (e.g. preservation of property rights). That's okay. I'm not a cultural relativist on ending slavery. I do respect diversity on concepts like what "equity" means. I think narrow, targeted interventions could work well around slavery, but would break down the instant those were perceived to touch on LGBTQ, women's rights, religion, equity, or a swarm of other issues around values. On the other hand, omitting at least a few of those, I'm unlikely to make headway in the West. That's not to mention economic / corporate issues, like IP rights.
- SyzygistSix 4y ago
  >Ending slavery isn't controversial Of course it isn't. What is not obvious is what replaces it that isn't de facto slavery or even reduces opportunities for people so that they are exploited elsewhere. Nor how the replacement is monitored for effectiveness and compliance. It is easy to say that slavery is bad and make it illegal. Fixing the actual problems in monarchies/dictatorships and impoverished countries with little opportunity is not easy or simple. The fact that a lot of slaves are not technically slaves but officially and legally "employed" makes the issue pretty plain to see. How do you see the solution to compliance in Middle Eastern monarchies and even in Western democracies where it is already illegal but happens none the less? I assume you are going to go out and implement these right away if it is so easy and obvious. You are looking for equitable solutions in places that explicitly do not value them. Improving that is hard, if it is not already obvious.

blagie 4y ago

US culture has victims in cages on the border with Mexico, victims in Gitmo, victims being locked up in prison due to racism, and about a million victims in Iraq/Syria. Not to mention most of global warming is from rich people. Are you okay destroying US culture? Or are you an apologist for our racist justice system? Would, as you put it "cultural imperialism which destroys such cultures as have victims would be strongly preferable to the continued existence of such cultures" in the context of Western culture? See what I did there? If the point I tried to make above isn't clear: * The point isn't to say slavery is okay -- it's obviously not -- but a lot of stuff in every culture is not okay. * A lot of other stuff in every culture is not okay as perceived by other cultures (especially around sex, gender, and religion), but comes down to values. * And a lot of other stuff is beautiful, unique, and good. Western cultural imperialist interventions haven't worked out well in the past. I'm glad to write more about that too. Even if you -- as most of these comments seem to -- believe that Western culture is superior, culturally imperialist interventions haven't led to the outcome you want. What interventions are you proposing, and why would you believe they would work any better here?