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I don't believe vegan has any ethical implications on its own? Especially given "ethical vegan" is a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism https://en.wi

I don't believe vegan has any ethical implications on its own? Especially given "ethical vegan" is a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism

scaredginger 4y ago
Wikipedia is wrong here. > Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals. https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/further-information/key-facts https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/further-information/ke...
- dataflow 4y ago
  I have never heard of the Vegan Society before; I suspect most people you interact with haven't either, even including those who are vegan due to ethical concerns. Could you explain why a random person should see this particular organization as having authority to define what the term means versus, say, their dictionary or Wikipedia? e.g., did this organization perhaps invent the word "vegan" originally? (I don't know the etymology.)
  - pcthrowaway 4y ago
    They created the word vegan, for one.
    - dataflow 4y ago
      Fascinating, thanks. For anyone following: https://gentleworld.org/the-full-journey-excerpts-from-the-vegan-news-november-1944/ https://gentleworld.org/the-full-journey-excerpts-from-the-v...
pcthrowaway 4y ago
I agree with the sibling comment; You just opened a big can of (gelatin-free, gummy) worms. Vegan absolutely refers to an ethical stance. One of the reasons plant-based is useful to distinguish from vegan when applied to people and their diets is that plant-based people may be doing it for health or religion or trendiness. Vegans are doing it for the animals (while health, the environment, religion, etc. may also play roles). Someone who is vegan won't purchase animal products. Consumption is besides the point, though technically it means they don't consume animal products also. Some people consume animal products if they don't purchase them, for example, if they dumpster dived or took home food a buffet was about to toss. This is sometimes called "freeganism" (which is also used to mean other things), and references that it's likely more ethical to consume food that would otherwise be wasted (even if it would include animal products) than to purchase food, because it has environmental implications
- scaredginger 4y ago
  Yup, freegans are welcome in the vegan camp. People who eat tofu and buy leather are not
- dataflow 4y ago
  > Someone who is vegan won't purchase animal products. Consumption is besides the point Sure, but I "animal product" refers to composition of the item, not the animal pain induced in the process? At least I've never heard of anyone suggesting lettuce or tomatoes (say) can be non-vegan depending on whether an animal tilled the field in pain.
  - pcthrowaway 4y ago
    Generally yes, it includes anything whose production involves animal exploitation, but the more you look into things, the more impossible or impractical it becomes. So many vegans pick and choose what they're able to avoid as far as products which don't actually contain animal products. Of course, the items which are suitable for some vegans but not others are generally still considered "vegan" (often with caveats) For example, sugar might be bleached through a process that involves bone char (but isn't always), coconuts from thailand are often harvested by enslaved monkeys who are forced to climb trees at penalty of pain or death, coffee and chocolate that isn't marked as fair trade is often harvested by child slaves. Some vegans might boycott entire companies like Nestle because of their exploitative practices. If I go to a restaurant, I don't typically inquire about the status of the coconut milk, but I might only purchase cruelty-free coconut milk at home, or check for a fair trade symbol or status on the food empowerment project (https://foodispower.org/ https://foodispower.org/) before purchasing chocolate.

I don't believe vegan has any ethical implications on its own? Especially given "ethical vegan" is a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism

scaredginger 4y ago

Wikipedia is wrong here. > Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals. https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/further-information/key-facts https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/further-information/ke...

dataflow 4y ago
I have never heard of the Vegan Society before; I suspect most people you interact with haven't either, even including those who are vegan due to ethical concerns. Could you explain why a random person should see this particular organization as having authority to define what the term means versus, say, their dictionary or Wikipedia? e.g., did this organization perhaps invent the word "vegan" originally? (I don't know the etymology.)
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  They created the word vegan, for one.
  - dataflow 4y ago
    Fascinating, thanks. For anyone following: https://gentleworld.org/the-full-journey-excerpts-from-the-vegan-news-november-1944/ https://gentleworld.org/the-full-journey-excerpts-from-the-v...

pcthrowaway 4y ago

I agree with the sibling comment; You just opened a big can of (gelatin-free, gummy) worms. Vegan absolutely refers to an ethical stance. One of the reasons plant-based is useful to distinguish from vegan when applied to people and their diets is that plant-based people may be doing it for health or religion or trendiness. Vegans are doing it for the animals (while health, the environment, religion, etc. may also play roles). Someone who is vegan won't purchase animal products. Consumption is besides the point, though technically it means they don't consume animal products also. Some people consume animal products if they don't purchase them, for example, if they dumpster dived or took home food a buffet was about to toss. This is sometimes called "freeganism" (which is also used to mean other things), and references that it's likely more ethical to consume food that would otherwise be wasted (even if it would include animal products) than to purchase food, because it has environmental implications

scaredginger 4y ago
Yup, freegans are welcome in the vegan camp. People who eat tofu and buy leather are not
dataflow 4y ago
> Someone who is vegan won't purchase animal products. Consumption is besides the point Sure, but I "animal product" refers to composition of the item, not the animal pain induced in the process? At least I've never heard of anyone suggesting lettuce or tomatoes (say) can be non-vegan depending on whether an animal tilled the field in pain.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  Generally yes, it includes anything whose production involves animal exploitation, but the more you look into things, the more impossible or impractical it becomes. So many vegans pick and choose what they're able to avoid as far as products which don't actually contain animal products. Of course, the items which are suitable for some vegans but not others are generally still considered "vegan" (often with caveats) For example, sugar might be bleached through a process that involves bone char (but isn't always), coconuts from thailand are often harvested by enslaved monkeys who are forced to climb trees at penalty of pain or death, coffee and chocolate that isn't marked as fair trade is often harvested by child slaves. Some vegans might boycott entire companies like Nestle because of their exploitative practices. If I go to a restaurant, I don't typically inquire about the status of the coconut milk, but I might only purchase cruelty-free coconut milk at home, or check for a fair trade symbol or status on the food empowerment project (https://foodispower.org/ https://foodispower.org/) before purchasing chocolate.