4 ms·

I think it's a shame that 'vegetarian' has come to mean 'lacto-ovo vegetarian' in the vernacular. Now, 'plant-based' generally takes the position in language th

I think it's a shame that 'vegetarian' has come to mean 'lacto-ovo vegetarian' in the vernacular. Now, 'plant-based' generally takes the position in language that 'vegetarian' should occupy. To be clear, there is also a distinction between 'plant-based' and 'vegan' in that the latter has ethical implications. If making a product caused animal suffering, but that product wasn't made from any animal products, then I'd argue it would be plant-based and not vegan. As someone who has these ethical concerns, these distinctions are important to me, even if they're not to most people.

namdnay 4y ago
So a tomato picked by a trained monkey would be plant-based but not vegan? What about canned tomatoes picked by quasi-slaves on some mafia farm in calabria? Would they not be vegan then?
- onion2k 4y ago
  If you're OK with eating food picked by slaves, quasi- or otherwise, then you have more to think about than veganism.
  - namdnay 4y ago
    my question was more on how this is tracked/labelled. if something is sold in the UK with the vegan logo, does that mean it is also free from human exploitation?
  - philwelch 4y ago
    Are you aware of how lithium ion batteries are made?
    - vel0city 4y ago
      Are you aware of how oil production proceeds fund global terrorism and warlords? Guess you can't buy any gasoline, since some % of oil is sold on the market from warlords committing atrocities in their countries. Did you know when you buy gasoline at the pump you're supporting a market which buys missiles for Saudi Arabia to bomb Yemen?
      - philwelch 4y ago
        My point exactly. It’s almost impossible to maintain these kinds of standards with our modern global supply chains.
        rsj_hn 4y ago
        Slavoj Zizek discusses this idea of "ethical consumerism" in a beautifully illustrated talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpAMbpQ8J7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpAMbpQ8J7g Needless to say, the idea that you are "supporting" something by voluntary exchange (how do you know that they aren't supporting you?) is a relatively recent development, and is of course completely unworkable. It's just another form of retail therapy.
dataflow 4y ago
I don't believe vegan has any ethical implications on its own? Especially given "ethical vegan" is a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism
- scaredginger 4y ago
  Wikipedia is wrong here. > Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals. https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/further-information/key-facts https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/further-information/ke...
  - dataflow 4y ago
    I have never heard of the Vegan Society before; I suspect most people you interact with haven't either, even including those who are vegan due to ethical concerns. Could you explain why a random person should see this particular organization as having authority to define what the term means versus, say, their dictionary or Wikipedia? e.g., did this organization perhaps invent the word "vegan" originally? (I don't know the etymology.)
    - pcthrowaway 4y ago
      They created the word vegan, for one.
      - dataflow 4y ago
        Fascinating, thanks. For anyone following: https://gentleworld.org/the-full-journey-excerpts-from-the-vegan-news-november-1944/ https://gentleworld.org/the-full-journey-excerpts-from-the-v...
- 4y ago
captainmuon 4y ago
There is another distinction: Vegan is like kosher. It is for people who "can't" eat meat. I feel funny if I order something that is vegan or kosher because I wonder what people think about my identity. But there is no such problem if I order something that is "without meat" or "made from vegetables" or even "plant-based" (or in the case of kosher: beef or chicken instead of pork). Still, I prefer the term vegan over plant-based because the latter seems convoluted and corporate, as opposed to just "meatless" or even "food" (and marking the non plant based products instead).
- onion2k 4y ago
  I feel funny if I order something that is vegan or kosher because I wonder what people think about my identity. Next time you've been out at a restaurant, after you leave ask yourself if you can remember any of the other patrons and what they ordered. Unless something out of the ordinary happened the answer will be no. Everyone else is the same. No one thinks about you, judges you, or even really notices that you exist. I don't mean that in a mean way; the simple fact is that everyone has enough going on in their life that they don't need to spend time and energy wondering about why someone else ordered the vegan option.
  - noisem4ker 4y ago
    Veganism in particular does not go unnoticed that easy, though, especially if it's in the name of the plate.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    > Next time you've been out at a restaurant, after you leave ask yourself if you can remember any of the other patrons and what they ordered. Yesterday I was at a BBQ restaurant. Some of the other patrons (sitting at the same table as me!) had a chicken-fried steak, another had a half-rack of ribs and green beans. Someone the next table over had some brisket and okra. The table on the other side had a tower of onion rings. Remembering these things isn't really taxing at all. Now, I truly don't care about these things, other than that I do like to somewhat remember what my friends do and do not like to eat so I know what to suggest or potentially cook them when they come over for dinner. I do somewhat agree though, if it's on the menu order what you want. If someone judges you immensely because you got the vegan chili, that's their issue.
chongli 4y ago
Cashew production typically involves a great deal of suffering from the workers. Avocado and palm kernel production are contributing greatly to deforestation and major habitat loss. Yet all three of these products are considered vegan. I think the reason people have begun to distance themselves from labels like vegan is that they’re associated with an ideology that is ethically inconsistent. Instead of examining every product and its complete role in society, economics, and in ecosystems, a short-hand is used which may have a lot of unintended consequences.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  The cashew preparation process often involves exploitative practices that scar the hands of workers who harvest and prepare them. It doesn't always involve these practices (though it's hard to tell which ones don't), and these practices aren't necessarily an order of magnitude worse than the inherent exploitation in the production of almost every other food item which is imported from third-world countries. Some vegans generally try to avoid cashews (and many other products) for this reason. Most don't because the list of things to avoid would leave them with very little to subside on.
wlll 4y ago
I’m mid 40s, live in the uk and was a vegetarian for a year in the 90s. Vegetarian for me always meant something like “not eating meat”. Milk and eggs were seen by me and I believe the general consciousness as ok for the most part. I’d disagree that vegetarian has “come to mean” lacto-ovo, unless you’re talking about a time before the late 80s, or a different scene than the uk.
- rsynnott 4y ago
  They are; ‘vegetarian’ in UK English used to mean approximately what ‘vegan’ does today, but it was at least a century ago. AIUI, today in India it normally means lacto-vegetarian, so there’s definitely a regional component too.

namdnay 4y ago

So a tomato picked by a trained monkey would be plant-based but not vegan? What about canned tomatoes picked by quasi-slaves on some mafia farm in calabria? Would they not be vegan then?

onion2k 4y ago
If you're OK with eating food picked by slaves, quasi- or otherwise, then you have more to think about than veganism.
- namdnay 4y ago
  my question was more on how this is tracked/labelled. if something is sold in the UK with the vegan logo, does that mean it is also free from human exploitation?
- philwelch 4y ago
  Are you aware of how lithium ion batteries are made?
  - vel0city 4y ago
    Are you aware of how oil production proceeds fund global terrorism and warlords? Guess you can't buy any gasoline, since some % of oil is sold on the market from warlords committing atrocities in their countries. Did you know when you buy gasoline at the pump you're supporting a market which buys missiles for Saudi Arabia to bomb Yemen?
    - philwelch 4y ago
      My point exactly. It’s almost impossible to maintain these kinds of standards with our modern global supply chains.
      - rsj_hn 4y ago
        Slavoj Zizek discusses this idea of "ethical consumerism" in a beautifully illustrated talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpAMbpQ8J7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpAMbpQ8J7g Needless to say, the idea that you are "supporting" something by voluntary exchange (how do you know that they aren't supporting you?) is a relatively recent development, and is of course completely unworkable. It's just another form of retail therapy.

dataflow 4y ago

I don't believe vegan has any ethical implications on its own? Especially given "ethical vegan" is a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism

scaredginger 4y ago
Wikipedia is wrong here. > Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals. https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/further-information/key-facts https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/further-information/ke...
- dataflow 4y ago
  I have never heard of the Vegan Society before; I suspect most people you interact with haven't either, even including those who are vegan due to ethical concerns. Could you explain why a random person should see this particular organization as having authority to define what the term means versus, say, their dictionary or Wikipedia? e.g., did this organization perhaps invent the word "vegan" originally? (I don't know the etymology.)
  - pcthrowaway 4y ago
    They created the word vegan, for one.
    - dataflow 4y ago
      Fascinating, thanks. For anyone following: https://gentleworld.org/the-full-journey-excerpts-from-the-vegan-news-november-1944/ https://gentleworld.org/the-full-journey-excerpts-from-the-v...
4y ago

captainmuon 4y ago

There is another distinction: Vegan is like kosher. It is for people who "can't" eat meat. I feel funny if I order something that is vegan or kosher because I wonder what people think about my identity. But there is no such problem if I order something that is "without meat" or "made from vegetables" or even "plant-based" (or in the case of kosher: beef or chicken instead of pork). Still, I prefer the term vegan over plant-based because the latter seems convoluted and corporate, as opposed to just "meatless" or even "food" (and marking the non plant based products instead).

onion2k 4y ago
I feel funny if I order something that is vegan or kosher because I wonder what people think about my identity. Next time you've been out at a restaurant, after you leave ask yourself if you can remember any of the other patrons and what they ordered. Unless something out of the ordinary happened the answer will be no. Everyone else is the same. No one thinks about you, judges you, or even really notices that you exist. I don't mean that in a mean way; the simple fact is that everyone has enough going on in their life that they don't need to spend time and energy wondering about why someone else ordered the vegan option.
- noisem4ker 4y ago
  Veganism in particular does not go unnoticed that easy, though, especially if it's in the name of the plate.
- vel0city 4y ago
  > Next time you've been out at a restaurant, after you leave ask yourself if you can remember any of the other patrons and what they ordered. Yesterday I was at a BBQ restaurant. Some of the other patrons (sitting at the same table as me!) had a chicken-fried steak, another had a half-rack of ribs and green beans. Someone the next table over had some brisket and okra. The table on the other side had a tower of onion rings. Remembering these things isn't really taxing at all. Now, I truly don't care about these things, other than that I do like to somewhat remember what my friends do and do not like to eat so I know what to suggest or potentially cook them when they come over for dinner. I do somewhat agree though, if it's on the menu order what you want. If someone judges you immensely because you got the vegan chili, that's their issue.

chongli 4y ago

Cashew production typically involves a great deal of suffering from the workers. Avocado and palm kernel production are contributing greatly to deforestation and major habitat loss. Yet all three of these products are considered vegan. I think the reason people have begun to distance themselves from labels like vegan is that they’re associated with an ideology that is ethically inconsistent. Instead of examining every product and its complete role in society, economics, and in ecosystems, a short-hand is used which may have a lot of unintended consequences.

pcthrowaway 4y ago
The cashew preparation process often involves exploitative practices that scar the hands of workers who harvest and prepare them. It doesn't always involve these practices (though it's hard to tell which ones don't), and these practices aren't necessarily an order of magnitude worse than the inherent exploitation in the production of almost every other food item which is imported from third-world countries. Some vegans generally try to avoid cashews (and many other products) for this reason. Most don't because the list of things to avoid would leave them with very little to subside on.

wlll 4y ago

I’m mid 40s, live in the uk and was a vegetarian for a year in the 90s. Vegetarian for me always meant something like “not eating meat”. Milk and eggs were seen by me and I believe the general consciousness as ok for the most part. I’d disagree that vegetarian has “come to mean” lacto-ovo, unless you’re talking about a time before the late 80s, or a different scene than the uk.

rsynnott 4y ago
They are; ‘vegetarian’ in UK English used to mean approximately what ‘vegan’ does today, but it was at least a century ago. AIUI, today in India it normally means lacto-vegetarian, so there’s definitely a regional component too.