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> You’ll just expect that most of the users on discord are bots unless you know them irl. Maybe if all you ever exchanged with someone was a few sentences abou

> You’ll just expect that most of the users on discord are bots unless you know them irl. Maybe if all you ever exchanged with someone was a few sentences about inconsequential stuff. ChatGPT isn't even close to being able to consistently act like a single human being with interests, plenty of long term memory, and a life outside a chat room. Right now the performance of ChatGPT in your average discord chat room would be absolutely awful. Nobody is bothering to write their messages as proper prompts a state-of-the-art AI could understand. People don't even just talk about one thing at a time - having multiple threads of conversation interspersed with each other is quite common and would absolutely confuse any current AI. There's also in-jokes and subtle references to things said days ago. People try to only use minimal information to convey what they mean, and often make figuring that out a small puzzle/joke to keep the conversation interesting.

swores 4y ago
> ChatGPT isn't even close to being able to consistently act like a single human being with interests, plenty of long term memory, and a life outside a chat room. Is it really not close, or just not done yet? They're already using human feedback loops to get it as good as it is generally, is it a huge step to then allow personalised feedback loops so that the local instance remembers its own "personality"? (I'm not an expert so maybe that is a huge, unrelated leap in a way that I can't see?)
- visarga 4y ago
  It's not complicated to explain. The model can handle 4000 tokens at once. So all you can do is work with the limitations of this window. You can use part of it to quote the previous interactions, and part of it for the response. If your content is too large, you need to summarise it. There are AIs for that too. If the output is too large, you need to split it in multiple rounds. It is pretty hard to work around this limitation, for example to write a whole novel. I think we need LLMs capable of reading a whole book at once, about 100K tokens. I hope they can innovate the memory system of transformers a bit, there are ideas and papers, but they don't seem to get attention.
  - Workaccount2 4y ago
    Sure, that is chatGPT in late 2022. What about Open.ChatGPT in mid 2024?
  - dpflan 4y ago
    Is there a "law of tokens" growth for LLMs, ala Moore's Law, but for LLM capabilities based upon token capacity?
    - visarga 4y ago
      Complexity is quadratic in sequence length. For 512 tokens it is 262K, but for 4000 tokens it becomes 16M and goes OOM on a single GPU. We need about 100K-1M tokens to load whole books at once. Since 2017 there have been hundreds of attempts to bring O(N^2) to O(N), but none of them replaced the vanilla attention yet in large models. They lose on accuracy. Maybe Flash attention has a shot (https://arxiv.org/abs/2205.14135 https://arxiv.org/abs/2205.14135).
ajuc 4y ago
You are focusing on the application not on the capability. ChatGPT was trained for a different purpose so if you used it for discord it would be recognizable. Not unlike a person that wrote newspaper articles all his life and now has to use discord. If you trained it on discord messages it would probably be indistinguishable from most discord users.
- chmod775 4y ago
  > If you trained it on discord messages it would probably be indistinguishable from most discord users. You might get an average of all discord users, or all discord users at once. Neither would seem like a real person. For instance someone who is interested in and capable of talking about any topic will not look real. A normal discord user will not contribute to conversations they don't care about or know nothing about.
  - ajuc 4y ago
    After 10-messages-long discussion - probably (I'm not sure but let's say you're right). But you won't have 10-messages-long discussion with anybody if there's 1010 users and 10 of them are human. AFAIR discord requires phone number, and that's the main reason spam isn't a problem, so maybe we're already there.
    - chmod775 4y ago
      > But you won't have 10-messages-long discussion with anybody if there's 1010 users and 10 of them are human. In such a place it doesn't really matter whether anyone is real, does it? You're probably there to get a few laughs or something, not build relationships with people. Though there's more serious places with real people. Off the top of my head there's two large discord servers I'm active in: One is to find people to play a certain video game with, the other is a community of developers who use somewhat niche technology and probe each other's brains for knowledge that often can't be found on the internet. In either community a chat bot would be immediately obvious.
      - 4y ago
anonzzzies 4y ago
> Maybe if all you ever exchanged with someone was a few sentences about inconsequential stuff. Like usually on HN, you give humans too much credit. Most people never exchange anything else with anyone but inconsequential stuff. IRL and online. The AI will give itself away by being too eager to write content and too grammatically/semantically correct and not random and inconsistent enough. Go to some places (instagram is pretty good for that) where people basically only communicate in emoji's and memes and where every sentence longer than 4 words is misunderstood because no-one actually has reading comprehension. > Right now the performance of ChatGPT in your average discord chat room would be absolutely awful. Most of the internet, including many discord channels are already absolutely awful. So yeah, it is a problem; for me, most people responding outside a few discord channels, subreddits, lobsters and hn, it's already bots or humans that could as well be bots anyway. And only a matter of time before it takes over those few places that are still ok. I will probably move to meetups offline more and more. The opposite of what I did my whole life.
- trompetenaccoun 4y ago
  Spelling mistakes can easily be added, as can reply delays. I think the mainstream will soon realize that Sybil resistance is not just important but essential for any forum or social network in the future. We need ways to ID users as humans, preferably in a way that preserves privacy for those who do not want to have their real identity linked to random internet comments.
  - anonzzzies 4y ago
    You can do KYC with a KYC specialized company and agree on some way of not having the social media company getting hold of that info, just ‘user4639284757483858 is a real human and they are not already on your platform’.
    - trompetenaccoun 4y ago
      Until they get hacked and your entire identity is leaked, not just Facebook and HN but all other accounts, linked to your government issued ID or SSN.
ciphol 4y ago
> ChatGPT isn't even close to being able to consistently act like a single human being with interests, plenty of long term memory, and a life outside a chat room. Wait until GPT4 comes out next year...
alar44 4y ago
Whatever helps you sleep at night.

swores 4y ago

> ChatGPT isn't even close to being able to consistently act like a single human being with interests, plenty of long term memory, and a life outside a chat room. Is it really not close, or just not done yet? They're already using human feedback loops to get it as good as it is generally, is it a huge step to then allow personalised feedback loops so that the local instance remembers its own "personality"? (I'm not an expert so maybe that is a huge, unrelated leap in a way that I can't see?)

visarga 4y ago
It's not complicated to explain. The model can handle 4000 tokens at once. So all you can do is work with the limitations of this window. You can use part of it to quote the previous interactions, and part of it for the response. If your content is too large, you need to summarise it. There are AIs for that too. If the output is too large, you need to split it in multiple rounds. It is pretty hard to work around this limitation, for example to write a whole novel. I think we need LLMs capable of reading a whole book at once, about 100K tokens. I hope they can innovate the memory system of transformers a bit, there are ideas and papers, but they don't seem to get attention.
- Workaccount2 4y ago
  Sure, that is chatGPT in late 2022. What about Open.ChatGPT in mid 2024?
- dpflan 4y ago
  Is there a "law of tokens" growth for LLMs, ala Moore's Law, but for LLM capabilities based upon token capacity?
  - visarga 4y ago
    Complexity is quadratic in sequence length. For 512 tokens it is 262K, but for 4000 tokens it becomes 16M and goes OOM on a single GPU. We need about 100K-1M tokens to load whole books at once. Since 2017 there have been hundreds of attempts to bring O(N^2) to O(N), but none of them replaced the vanilla attention yet in large models. They lose on accuracy. Maybe Flash attention has a shot (https://arxiv.org/abs/2205.14135 https://arxiv.org/abs/2205.14135).

ajuc 4y ago

You are focusing on the application not on the capability. ChatGPT was trained for a different purpose so if you used it for discord it would be recognizable. Not unlike a person that wrote newspaper articles all his life and now has to use discord. If you trained it on discord messages it would probably be indistinguishable from most discord users.

chmod775 4y ago
> If you trained it on discord messages it would probably be indistinguishable from most discord users. You might get an average of all discord users, or all discord users at once. Neither would seem like a real person. For instance someone who is interested in and capable of talking about any topic will not look real. A normal discord user will not contribute to conversations they don't care about or know nothing about.
- ajuc 4y ago
  After 10-messages-long discussion - probably (I'm not sure but let's say you're right). But you won't have 10-messages-long discussion with anybody if there's 1010 users and 10 of them are human. AFAIR discord requires phone number, and that's the main reason spam isn't a problem, so maybe we're already there.
  - chmod775 4y ago
    > But you won't have 10-messages-long discussion with anybody if there's 1010 users and 10 of them are human. In such a place it doesn't really matter whether anyone is real, does it? You're probably there to get a few laughs or something, not build relationships with people. Though there's more serious places with real people. Off the top of my head there's two large discord servers I'm active in: One is to find people to play a certain video game with, the other is a community of developers who use somewhat niche technology and probe each other's brains for knowledge that often can't be found on the internet. In either community a chat bot would be immediately obvious.
    - 4y ago

anonzzzies 4y ago

> Maybe if all you ever exchanged with someone was a few sentences about inconsequential stuff. Like usually on HN, you give humans too much credit. Most people never exchange anything else with anyone but inconsequential stuff. IRL and online. The AI will give itself away by being too eager to write content and too grammatically/semantically correct and not random and inconsistent enough. Go to some places (instagram is pretty good for that) where people basically only communicate in emoji's and memes and where every sentence longer than 4 words is misunderstood because no-one actually has reading comprehension. > Right now the performance of ChatGPT in your average discord chat room would be absolutely awful. Most of the internet, including many discord channels are already absolutely awful. So yeah, it is a problem; for me, most people responding outside a few discord channels, subreddits, lobsters and hn, it's already bots or humans that could as well be bots anyway. And only a matter of time before it takes over those few places that are still ok. I will probably move to meetups offline more and more. The opposite of what I did my whole life.

trompetenaccoun 4y ago
Spelling mistakes can easily be added, as can reply delays. I think the mainstream will soon realize that Sybil resistance is not just important but essential for any forum or social network in the future. We need ways to ID users as humans, preferably in a way that preserves privacy for those who do not want to have their real identity linked to random internet comments.
- anonzzzies 4y ago
  You can do KYC with a KYC specialized company and agree on some way of not having the social media company getting hold of that info, just ‘user4639284757483858 is a real human and they are not already on your platform’.
  - trompetenaccoun 4y ago
    Until they get hacked and your entire identity is leaked, not just Facebook and HN but all other accounts, linked to your government issued ID or SSN.

ciphol 4y ago

> ChatGPT isn't even close to being able to consistently act like a single human being with interests, plenty of long term memory, and a life outside a chat room. Wait until GPT4 comes out next year...

alar44 4y ago

Whatever helps you sleep at night.