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The reality is that most people's mental abilities have started to decline by this age, particularly the capacity to learn new things. That makes this story all

by cm2187 4y ago

The reality is that most people's mental abilities have started to decline by this age, particularly the capacity to learn new things. That makes this story all the more remarkable. Part of that I think is certainly as you suggest, that the brain is a muscle, you need to use it to keep it fit. But you can't escape nature either. To keep the muscle analogy, you won’t compete as an athlete at 72 no matter how fit you remain.

mindcrime 4y ago
To keep the muscle analogy, you won’t compete as an athlete at 72 no matter how fit you remain. I hate to be "pedantic guy", but FWIW there are absolutely 72 year old competitive athletes. They may not be competitive against folks 20+ years younger than themselves, but many people continue to compete in "masters" divisions of various competitive sports until pretty much the day they keel over. Heck, there are folks who are 70+ competing in ultra-marathons.
- cm2187 4y ago
  > They may not be competitive against folks 20+ years younger than themselves that's kind of my point. Of course they can compete against other 72 year olds.
  - echelon 4y ago
    And average 50 year olds.
  - mindcrime 4y ago
    Sure. And I agree that you "can't defeat nature" in the end, but at the same time, that's no argument against fighting it tooth and nail, right down to the bitter end, staying as fit as possible, both mentally and physically. :-)
  - pleb_nz 4y ago
    Why does it have to be a competition. Shouldn't it be about being able to help and contribute. Too much focus on efficiency and not enough on well being of society as a whole. 80 year olds with a desire can still contribute. It doesn't have to be in competition with 20 years.
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      IME almost all 80 year olds can contribute much more than 20 year olds for any mental task, beyond super-demanding cognitive work like high-level math or some coding.
    - cm2187 4y ago
      My point isn't the competition, it is the fact that there is a physical decline with age that no amount of training can offset, which you can observe if you compare to a 20yo. I think it is the same with the brain. And like for every large population it is a distribution, there are always outliers. But not many.
echelon 4y ago
> The reality is that most people's mental abilities have started to decline by this age, particularly the capacity to learn new things. I agree with the first statement, but more of a function of accumulated metabolic and cognitive dysfunction than merely age. I don't think the second statement necessarily follows. Time spent fully engrossed in a subject, where the learner is able to put away their ego and learn as a child would, is what is conducive to good learning. That can happen at any age, but in practice, seldom does due to the demanding structure of adult life.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > Time spent fully engrossed in a subject, where the learner is able to put away their ego and learn as a child would, is what is conducive to good learning. That can happen at any age, but in practice, seldom does due to the demanding structure of adult life. That's what I'm talking about, but don't blame some external force for that outcome. It's a choice; it's about priorities. If you give yourself time for a little growth, I think you'll net much greater productivity overall - including emotional presence for your family.
wolverine876 4y ago
> Part of that I think is certainly as you suggest, that the brain is a muscle, you need to use it to keep it fit. My claim, which admittedly is hard to substantiate, is that growth (a general term) will offset aging to a much greater degree than people imagine. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if psychological and physiological aging of the brain is mostly due to lack of growth. > To keep the muscle analogy, you won’t compete as an athlete at 72 no matter how fit you remain. I think the muscle analogy can be a useful one, but that it misleads here: Muscles start deteriorating at age 20 or 25; our brains do not on balance (they do in some ways, and improve in others). Peak mental performance is, IIRC, in our 40s and 50s.
cjohansson 4y ago
This is not true, it varies by personality, some personalities have high neuropasticity even when they get older. It depends on individual differences in the dopaminergic system
- wolverine876 4y ago
  What is "personality"? How much of that is choice? And for the neuroplasticity and are the dopaminergic system differences, how much is cause and how much is effect? Our actions affect our brains and the rest of our bodies, and vice versa. If I chose to lift heavy weights every day, after ten years you wouldn't say, 'they do that because they have extra muscle'.

by cm2187 4y ago

mindcrime 4y ago

To keep the muscle analogy, you won’t compete as an athlete at 72 no matter how fit you remain. I hate to be "pedantic guy", but FWIW there are absolutely 72 year old competitive athletes. They may not be competitive against folks 20+ years younger than themselves, but many people continue to compete in "masters" divisions of various competitive sports until pretty much the day they keel over. Heck, there are folks who are 70+ competing in ultra-marathons.

cm2187 4y ago
> They may not be competitive against folks 20+ years younger than themselves that's kind of my point. Of course they can compete against other 72 year olds.
- echelon 4y ago
  And average 50 year olds.
- mindcrime 4y ago
  Sure. And I agree that you "can't defeat nature" in the end, but at the same time, that's no argument against fighting it tooth and nail, right down to the bitter end, staying as fit as possible, both mentally and physically. :-)
- pleb_nz 4y ago
  Why does it have to be a competition. Shouldn't it be about being able to help and contribute. Too much focus on efficiency and not enough on well being of society as a whole. 80 year olds with a desire can still contribute. It doesn't have to be in competition with 20 years.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    IME almost all 80 year olds can contribute much more than 20 year olds for any mental task, beyond super-demanding cognitive work like high-level math or some coding.
  - cm2187 4y ago
    My point isn't the competition, it is the fact that there is a physical decline with age that no amount of training can offset, which you can observe if you compare to a 20yo. I think it is the same with the brain. And like for every large population it is a distribution, there are always outliers. But not many.

echelon 4y ago

> The reality is that most people's mental abilities have started to decline by this age, particularly the capacity to learn new things. I agree with the first statement, but more of a function of accumulated metabolic and cognitive dysfunction than merely age. I don't think the second statement necessarily follows. Time spent fully engrossed in a subject, where the learner is able to put away their ego and learn as a child would, is what is conducive to good learning. That can happen at any age, but in practice, seldom does due to the demanding structure of adult life.

wolverine876 4y ago
> Time spent fully engrossed in a subject, where the learner is able to put away their ego and learn as a child would, is what is conducive to good learning. That can happen at any age, but in practice, seldom does due to the demanding structure of adult life. That's what I'm talking about, but don't blame some external force for that outcome. It's a choice; it's about priorities. If you give yourself time for a little growth, I think you'll net much greater productivity overall - including emotional presence for your family.

wolverine876 4y ago

> Part of that I think is certainly as you suggest, that the brain is a muscle, you need to use it to keep it fit. My claim, which admittedly is hard to substantiate, is that growth (a general term) will offset aging to a much greater degree than people imagine. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if psychological and physiological aging of the brain is mostly due to lack of growth. > To keep the muscle analogy, you won’t compete as an athlete at 72 no matter how fit you remain. I think the muscle analogy can be a useful one, but that it misleads here: Muscles start deteriorating at age 20 or 25; our brains do not on balance (they do in some ways, and improve in others). Peak mental performance is, IIRC, in our 40s and 50s.

cjohansson 4y ago

This is not true, it varies by personality, some personalities have high neuropasticity even when they get older. It depends on individual differences in the dopaminergic system

wolverine876 4y ago
What is "personality"? How much of that is choice? And for the neuroplasticity and are the dopaminergic system differences, how much is cause and how much is effect? Our actions affect our brains and the rest of our bodies, and vice versa. If I chose to lift heavy weights every day, after ten years you wouldn't say, 'they do that because they have extra muscle'.