6 ms·

I would be interested to see before and after shots. Was their advertising problem really so bad or was just about the same as any other city? Edit: Found one:

by jxcole 15y ago

I would be interested to see before and after shots. Was their advertising problem really so bad or was just about the same as any other city? Edit: Found one: http://banbillboardblight.org/?page_id=4251 http://banbillboardblight.org/?page_id=4251

jobu 15y ago
So they didn't eliminate all signage, but it was rather dramatically reduced. I grew up in a suburb of Minneapolis that had similar restrictions on advertising, and I can say that it is very nice as a resident. Now when I visit however, I find it difficult to locate some of the new businesses. I'm curious how this law has affected business revenue from tourists in Sao Paulo.
- DanielRibeiro 15y ago
  It really affected the advertising business. On the other hand, it actually spurred the Indoor media business (such as Elemedia[1, which installs on business buildings monitors that display ads, beside the occasional news/weather info). [1] http://www.elemidia.com.br/ http://www.elemidia.com.br/
  - rufibarbatus 15y ago
    I'm curious about how your experience compares to mine: more often than not (say four times a week?) I see at least one of those indoor media terminals blue-screen dead. At any rate, their content is 100% generic (the only exception I ever saw was at the Daslu megastore's elevators). Doing indoor media "right" seems to be a yet unsolved problem in São Paulo. And still I'm not sure how relevant these terminals are in the smartphone- and tabled-filled environments they're usually spotted.
- ams6110 15y ago
  I've had the same problem in areas where business signage is strictly regulated. It's harder to find the place you're looking for when the only sign is very low to the ground and unobtrusive, and you can't see it until you're right on top of it.
  - eternalban 15y ago
    Clearly that doesn't stop the mail being delivered to these businesses. Using their address as a navigational aid would seem to suffice. That does not address the business concern of capturing new business via signage, but the whole point here is that urban dwellers also have legitimate concerns and that private business interest should yield when reasonable collective concerns are being addressed. [edit: in fact, there is startup opportunity here that can address both concerns, and it would seem to be a win-win. I don't have a car myself, but last time I rode one shutgun, the nav device (Lexus) had option to pepper the map with fast food, etc. icons. Hang your billboard there and spare the rest of us who object to being subjected to visual/textual noise that we have no means to avoid otherwise.]
    - electromagnetic 15y ago
      > That does not address the business concern of capturing new business via signage Yes but the question is how much business do you get from signage. I work for a construction company, you wouldn't know we exist by signage unless you drive down the industrial address our company is on. Most of our business comes from the signs on our trucks and trailers. On a single job I've had upwards of a dozen people come up to me and ask for a business card because they're impressed by our work. We're not going to get huge business by a sign on main street, we get business by just doing our job because you get interested customers who might be hesitant and have questions. If they come and ask why us vs our next leading competitor, I can tell them "because they only use contractors, you might get good work and you might not". I haven't been to a single restaurant in the past 5 years that either I didn't look for, or someone didn't refer/take me to. I understand why some business owners might be annoyed if store front signage is restricted too much, especially if they're dependent on walk-in customers. However, I can't think of the last place I had to walk into that I didn't already know where it was. However, I know around here there's Little Caesars pizza restaurants that keep popping up in plazas out of the way and they hire people to stand on the sidewalk to hold a sign. Why do I find this less offensive? Basically because someone who might need a job is actually getting paid, rather than a fee going to a signage company, and also because they're doing this on baron sidewalks that are basically only ever used by highschool kids anyway because no one walks in a non-verticalized city.
- kingkawn 15y ago
  "Now when I visit however, I find it difficult to locate some of the new businesses." I'd be shocked if many people, on this site in paritcular, used street ads as their primary means of locating new businesses they'd been wanting to find.
  - jacoblyles 15y ago
    I visited a new city this past week and that is exactly how I located most of the businesses I shopped at while in the area.
  - ricardobeat 15y ago
    These laws also forbid huge facades / signage containing brand advertising, so logos are smaller and store fronts less attention-grabbing. I think that's what he was talking about. This store, for instance, was fined R$300.000,00 for it's signage a couple months ago: http://img.vejasp.abril.com.br/t/2/t420x280/ponto-frio-megastore.jpg http://img.vejasp.abril.com.br/t/2/t420x280/ponto-frio-megas... (the penguin is their trademark)
  - danssig 15y ago
    Why? Sure, if I'm looking for a specific store I find out the info online or on my phone. But just the other day, after accomplishing what I had planned to, I wanted something to eat. But where I live in Europe there are no signs on the highway so you just have to known where the restaurants are. We ended up eating at Burger King because I knew that was there. I would have preferred something nicer.
- tokenadult 15y ago
  I live in a suburb of Minneapolis now, and I don't recall there being a city in this area with the phenomenon you mention, so I'd be glad if you would kindly let me know which city you have in mind. I'll try to look for some businesses there and see what the experience is like.
- JerusaEnt 15y ago
  "So they didn't eliminate all signage, but it was rather dramatically reduced." I was actually paying attention to that. They allowed business to put up their own sign on their own residence, but not other ads. For example you see the Mcdonalds sign at the Mcdonalds, the Xerox sign at the Xerox, and the Shell sign at the Shell. But I didn't notice anything other then that.
  - kawera 15y ago
    And signs are also limited to a max of 2 or 4 square meters, depending on the size of the storefront.
- darklajid 15y ago
  Two things come to my mind: 1) Do you think most tourists (be it in Sao Paulo or elsewhere) can speak the local language? Read it? Do the signs need to be very visual to make even sense? 2) Isn't there still a huge difference between the number of times you actually found an ad helpful ("Ah, okay.. Let's go there") vs. awkward, boring, distracting? I especially like the first one. This country has less people than Sao Paulo. In fact, the local language is probably spoken (and read) by less people than those living in Sao Paulo. Billboards are everywhere, including hotlines, shortcodes, directions - and I cannot understand a single one. I'd argue that the average tourist here wouldn't care about the ads. They are for residents/citizens.
  - rufibarbatus 15y ago
    1. Brown (touristic) signs are still a bit rare here, but they're always bi- or tri- lingual. Most other road signs are pictorial and follow international standards. Street signs show the name of the street in big, readable type. That said, even São Paulo denizens get lost here pretty often (and Brazilians from other towns even more so). 2. Ads weren't that localized to begin with. Billboards usually advertised appliances, commodities, magazines... not nearby places of interest. So they could have been anywhere, really, they were just "visual pollution" really. (I suppose by saying this I'm confirming your hunch?) Concerning #2 still: when the bill got passed, the government started selling advertising space in the back of buses and inside the metropolitan transport system (trains and stations). I'm not sure if this is on purpose, but these ads have usually been far more localised (relevant to the route of the vehicle or the vicinities of the stations) than the billboards they somewhat replaced.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
ars 15y ago
After watching that, I could easily support banning 3rd party advertising. But removing the ads for the business just under the ad does not strike me as better. It makes the business district look sleepy and quiet, rather than active and bustling. And as a resident I don't mind ads telling me what I can do/get/buy at a location - that's sort of what I want when I visit a business district.
- rhizome 15y ago
  It makes the business district look sleepy and quiet, rather than active and bustling. Only to people looking at pictures on the internet. When you're there, there's just as much commerce happening as ever. Note that Brazil is one of the few countries that was able to evade the global rape that the finanical industries committed over the past few years. What was the last thing you bought that was directly attributable to seeing a street advertisement at a location?
  - comicjk 15y ago
    Clearly we buy some things on that basis, or businesses wouldn't pay for the ads.
    - rhizome 15y ago
      Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
    - extension 15y ago
      What's clear about that? Don't assume that these businesses can accurately measure how effective their street advertising is.
    - cmdrreiki 15y ago
      Not so clear. Many advertisers will quickly disavow this approach, and freely admit they instead aim to create vague positive feelings for the brand.
  - ars 15y ago
spodek 15y ago
For more background and some interviews of business owners there, see Morgan Spurlock's movie, The Greatest Movie Ever Sold. He's the guy who did Supersize Me and some tv shows. He traveled to São Paulo and this movie shows footage of the city. I learned of the city's ban from that movie. (Edit: thanks Icebrain for correcting my spelling)
- spodek 15y ago
  Downvoted? The movie shows before and after images and interviews people there, directly answering the question of the post I responded to. After seeing the movie I even looked online to see if anyone posted those specific scenes (of São Paulo) online. I didn't find any, but if anyone else found them, please let me know.
- icebraining 15y ago
  *São Paulo
redler 15y ago
I'm so accustomed to seeing my own big city festooned with advertisements on almost every feasible surface, from stickers on lightpoles to 20,000 square foot billboards, that this almost looks fake. It's like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. But for advertising.
perfunctory 15y ago
> so bad or was just about the same as any other city To me, it's quite bad in any other city.

by jxcole 15y ago

jobu 15y ago

So they didn't eliminate all signage, but it was rather dramatically reduced. I grew up in a suburb of Minneapolis that had similar restrictions on advertising, and I can say that it is very nice as a resident. Now when I visit however, I find it difficult to locate some of the new businesses. I'm curious how this law has affected business revenue from tourists in Sao Paulo.

DanielRibeiro 15y ago
It really affected the advertising business. On the other hand, it actually spurred the Indoor media business (such as Elemedia[1, which installs on business buildings monitors that display ads, beside the occasional news/weather info). [1] http://www.elemidia.com.br/ http://www.elemidia.com.br/
- rufibarbatus 15y ago
  I'm curious about how your experience compares to mine: more often than not (say four times a week?) I see at least one of those indoor media terminals blue-screen dead. At any rate, their content is 100% generic (the only exception I ever saw was at the Daslu megastore's elevators). Doing indoor media "right" seems to be a yet unsolved problem in São Paulo. And still I'm not sure how relevant these terminals are in the smartphone- and tabled-filled environments they're usually spotted.
ams6110 15y ago
I've had the same problem in areas where business signage is strictly regulated. It's harder to find the place you're looking for when the only sign is very low to the ground and unobtrusive, and you can't see it until you're right on top of it.
- eternalban 15y ago
  Clearly that doesn't stop the mail being delivered to these businesses. Using their address as a navigational aid would seem to suffice. That does not address the business concern of capturing new business via signage, but the whole point here is that urban dwellers also have legitimate concerns and that private business interest should yield when reasonable collective concerns are being addressed. [edit: in fact, there is startup opportunity here that can address both concerns, and it would seem to be a win-win. I don't have a car myself, but last time I rode one shutgun, the nav device (Lexus) had option to pepper the map with fast food, etc. icons. Hang your billboard there and spare the rest of us who object to being subjected to visual/textual noise that we have no means to avoid otherwise.]
  - electromagnetic 15y ago
    > That does not address the business concern of capturing new business via signage Yes but the question is how much business do you get from signage. I work for a construction company, you wouldn't know we exist by signage unless you drive down the industrial address our company is on. Most of our business comes from the signs on our trucks and trailers. On a single job I've had upwards of a dozen people come up to me and ask for a business card because they're impressed by our work. We're not going to get huge business by a sign on main street, we get business by just doing our job because you get interested customers who might be hesitant and have questions. If they come and ask why us vs our next leading competitor, I can tell them "because they only use contractors, you might get good work and you might not". I haven't been to a single restaurant in the past 5 years that either I didn't look for, or someone didn't refer/take me to. I understand why some business owners might be annoyed if store front signage is restricted too much, especially if they're dependent on walk-in customers. However, I can't think of the last place I had to walk into that I didn't already know where it was. However, I know around here there's Little Caesars pizza restaurants that keep popping up in plazas out of the way and they hire people to stand on the sidewalk to hold a sign. Why do I find this less offensive? Basically because someone who might need a job is actually getting paid, rather than a fee going to a signage company, and also because they're doing this on baron sidewalks that are basically only ever used by highschool kids anyway because no one walks in a non-verticalized city.
kingkawn 15y ago
"Now when I visit however, I find it difficult to locate some of the new businesses." I'd be shocked if many people, on this site in paritcular, used street ads as their primary means of locating new businesses they'd been wanting to find.
- jacoblyles 15y ago
  I visited a new city this past week and that is exactly how I located most of the businesses I shopped at while in the area.
- ricardobeat 15y ago
  These laws also forbid huge facades / signage containing brand advertising, so logos are smaller and store fronts less attention-grabbing. I think that's what he was talking about. This store, for instance, was fined R$300.000,00 for it's signage a couple months ago: http://img.vejasp.abril.com.br/t/2/t420x280/ponto-frio-megastore.jpg http://img.vejasp.abril.com.br/t/2/t420x280/ponto-frio-megas... (the penguin is their trademark)
- danssig 15y ago
  Why? Sure, if I'm looking for a specific store I find out the info online or on my phone. But just the other day, after accomplishing what I had planned to, I wanted something to eat. But where I live in Europe there are no signs on the highway so you just have to known where the restaurants are. We ended up eating at Burger King because I knew that was there. I would have preferred something nicer.
tokenadult 15y ago
I live in a suburb of Minneapolis now, and I don't recall there being a city in this area with the phenomenon you mention, so I'd be glad if you would kindly let me know which city you have in mind. I'll try to look for some businesses there and see what the experience is like.
JerusaEnt 15y ago
"So they didn't eliminate all signage, but it was rather dramatically reduced." I was actually paying attention to that. They allowed business to put up their own sign on their own residence, but not other ads. For example you see the Mcdonalds sign at the Mcdonalds, the Xerox sign at the Xerox, and the Shell sign at the Shell. But I didn't notice anything other then that.
- kawera 15y ago
  And signs are also limited to a max of 2 or 4 square meters, depending on the size of the storefront.
darklajid 15y ago
Two things come to my mind: 1) Do you think most tourists (be it in Sao Paulo or elsewhere) can speak the local language? Read it? Do the signs need to be very visual to make even sense? 2) Isn't there still a huge difference between the number of times you actually found an ad helpful ("Ah, okay.. Let's go there") vs. awkward, boring, distracting? I especially like the first one. This country has less people than Sao Paulo. In fact, the local language is probably spoken (and read) by less people than those living in Sao Paulo. Billboards are everywhere, including hotlines, shortcodes, directions - and I cannot understand a single one. I'd argue that the average tourist here wouldn't care about the ads. They are for residents/citizens.
- rufibarbatus 15y ago
  1. Brown (touristic) signs are still a bit rare here, but they're always bi- or tri- lingual. Most other road signs are pictorial and follow international standards. Street signs show the name of the street in big, readable type. That said, even São Paulo denizens get lost here pretty often (and Brazilians from other towns even more so). 2. Ads weren't that localized to begin with. Billboards usually advertised appliances, commodities, magazines... not nearby places of interest. So they could have been anywhere, really, they were just "visual pollution" really. (I suppose by saying this I'm confirming your hunch?) Concerning #2 still: when the bill got passed, the government started selling advertising space in the back of buses and inside the metropolitan transport system (trains and stations). I'm not sure if this is on purpose, but these ads have usually been far more localised (relevant to the route of the vehicle or the vicinities of the stations) than the billboards they somewhat replaced.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

ars 15y ago

After watching that, I could easily support banning 3rd party advertising. But removing the ads for the business just under the ad does not strike me as better. It makes the business district look sleepy and quiet, rather than active and bustling. And as a resident I don't mind ads telling me what I can do/get/buy at a location - that's sort of what I want when I visit a business district.

rhizome 15y ago
It makes the business district look sleepy and quiet, rather than active and bustling. Only to people looking at pictures on the internet. When you're there, there's just as much commerce happening as ever. Note that Brazil is one of the few countries that was able to evade the global rape that the finanical industries committed over the past few years. What was the last thing you bought that was directly attributable to seeing a street advertisement at a location?
- comicjk 15y ago
  Clearly we buy some things on that basis, or businesses wouldn't pay for the ads.
  - rhizome 15y ago
    Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
  - extension 15y ago
    What's clear about that? Don't assume that these businesses can accurately measure how effective their street advertising is.
  - cmdrreiki 15y ago
    Not so clear. Many advertisers will quickly disavow this approach, and freely admit they instead aim to create vague positive feelings for the brand.
- ars 15y ago

spodek 15y ago

For more background and some interviews of business owners there, see Morgan Spurlock's movie, The Greatest Movie Ever Sold. He's the guy who did Supersize Me and some tv shows. He traveled to São Paulo and this movie shows footage of the city. I learned of the city's ban from that movie. (Edit: thanks Icebrain for correcting my spelling)

spodek 15y ago
Downvoted? The movie shows before and after images and interviews people there, directly answering the question of the post I responded to. After seeing the movie I even looked online to see if anyone posted those specific scenes (of São Paulo) online. I didn't find any, but if anyone else found them, please let me know.
icebraining 15y ago
*São Paulo

redler 15y ago

I'm so accustomed to seeing my own big city festooned with advertisements on almost every feasible surface, from stickers on lightpoles to 20,000 square foot billboards, that this almost looks fake. It's like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. But for advertising.

perfunctory 15y ago

> so bad or was just about the same as any other city To me, it's quite bad in any other city.