4 ms·

>There is even a bible verse about this: Please don't (mis)quote the Bible at me if you don't take it seriously. This isn't what this verse means and is a dist

>There is even a bible verse about this: Please don't (mis)quote the Bible at me if you don't take it seriously. This isn't what this verse means and is a distraction. >How can you say that the authors of the bible made up 99 miracles but were honest about a few of them? My comment was directed to a fellow Christian and lacked a lot of context important for non believers. Let me try and unpack my original intent. There are a LOT of facts and pseudofacts in the Bible. There are a LOT (like a lot) of distractions in the discussions of Christianity. There is a small number of relevant and key facts that are critical to agree on. If these facts are wrong - nothing else matters. If we disagree on these facts - nothing else matters. These facts are commonly summarized as "The Gospel". Here they are: God created everything God created you and me to be in a perfect relationship with Him We sinned and are separated from this perfect relationship There is no way we can earn our way back to this perfect relationship Jesus, who is God, came to earth. He lived a perfect life. He died the death that I deserve. He was resurrected He ascended to heaven If I accept His death in place of mine, I can live forever in a perfect relationship with the God of the Universe ------ That is it. Here are some things that don't matter: How many fish Jesus used to feed people. Are Angels real. What on earth was happening in Genesis ch 6 (Christians, you know what I'm talking about). Was David king. These questions might be nice to talk about amd agree on - BUT - and this is important - if we can't agree on the Gospel then nothing else matters. Nothing. So let's not get distracted with "do all 4 gospels agree on the order of the miracles". Let's stay focused on things that point to the gospel. Did Jesus die? Was he resurrected? Did he ascend into heaven? Because if we can agree on these questions (and the others in the gospel), then and only then can we talk about "Did Jesus walk on water" or "is homosexuality wrong". But if Jesus didn't come back to life, then I am truely screwed and nothing else matters. (and, yes, there is a bible verse for that, but I'm not going to waste my time looking it up)

skissane 4y ago
I wasn't trying to have a theological conversation as such. One doesn't need to be a Christian at all to understand that Christianity, in all its major historical manifestations – Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant – has always drawn some distinction between "core beliefs" (sometimes called "dogmas") and "less core beliefs". Different branches of Christianity disagree on what exactly constitutes the "core", but making such a distinction is near-universal. And, while the claim that Jesus worked miracles is arguably part of that core, questions about exactly which ones, how many, in what order, etc, never have been. Only a very small number of individual miracles belong to that core in themselves, chief among which are the Resurrection and the Virgin Birth. Catholicism takes this idea of "core"-versus-"non-core", and elaborates it into a whole "hierarchy of truths" (also called "theological notes"), with numerous defined levels. Orthodoxy and Protestantism have never accepted the details of that picture, but most Orthodox and Protestants would probably agree that it is more than a simple binary, it is more of a spectrum, even if they think Catholic theology went overboard in trying to break down that spectrum into precisely defined levels. (And some contemporary Catholic theologians agree with the criticism that Catholic theology did historically go overboard with this.) Viewed in that light, it can be defended that while both the Resurrection and the Virgin Birth belong to the core, the former is "even more core" than the later; there may be a small number of other individual miracles (such as the Transfiguration) which may be somewhat core as well, although clearly "less core" than either the Resurrection or the Virgin Birth are. But, one doesn't need to be a Christian at all to understand all this – one can understand the details of the history of how Christians have understood their own doctrines and dogmas, whether or not one personally believes in any of them. > If I accept His death in place of mine This sounds to me like an expression of penal substitutionary atonement (PSA). While many Protestants (especially conservative evangelical ones) tend to believe that PSA is core to the Gospel, other Christians disagree. The intellectual history of PSA can be traced through Anselm of Canterbury in mediaeval England, who in turn influenced Catholic scholastic theology (especially Thomas Aquinas) and then Protestant Reformers such as Luther and Calvin (who despite openly rejecting much of mediaeval Catholic theology, sometimes retained more of it than they consciously realised.) The whole satisfaction/substitutionary approach to atonement is rather Latin/Western (Roman Catholic and Protestant), while Eastern Christian traditions (Eastern Orthodoxy, Eastern Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy, Church of the East) put more emphasis on alternatives such as ransom theory and recapitulation theory. While one could interpret your statement in terms of ransom or recapitulation theory, I doubt such an interpretation would be true to what you actually meant by it.
whatshisface 4y ago
>Because if we can agree on these questions (and the others in the gospel), then and only then can we talk about "Did Jesus walk on water" If someone tells you a story with several elements in it, one that is important but you can't verify, and the others which are trivial but you know to be lies, what would you say about the one important claim they're making? I don't see how someone can (for example) say that angels or miracles are supposed to be metaphorical without calling in to question whether the birth of Christ was metaphorical.
- skissane 4y ago
  > If someone tells you a story with several elements in it, one that is important but you can't verify, and the others which are trivial but you know to be lies, what would you say about the one important claim they're making? I doubt the Gospels contain "lies". Even if it is true that many of the events in them never happened as described, I doubt they are deliberate falsehoods – which is what "lies" are. I think it is far more likely that its authors genuinely believed they were writing the truth, even if it turns out they sometimes weren't. I think most religious scriptures (whatever the religion) are the product of genuine (even if mistaken) belief rather than blatant charlatanism. Stories can evolve through retelling (especially in oral-centric cultures), such that a small kernel of truth becomes surrounded by elaborate fictions, without anybody ever consciously engaging in lying or deception. Furthermore, a Christian who believes in the "core miracles", but doesn't extend their belief to the "non-core", is unlikely to agree that they "know" that these non-core miracles are false. They are more likely to say that, they have a faith conviction in the truth of the core, but are agnostic ("I don't know") with respect to how much truth is contained in the non-core. I'd be surprised if there was anyone who was positive about the truth of the core, and just as positive about the falsehood of the non-core.

skissane 4y ago

I wasn't trying to have a theological conversation as such. One doesn't need to be a Christian at all to understand that Christianity, in all its major historical manifestations – Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant – has always drawn some distinction between "core beliefs" (sometimes called "dogmas") and "less core beliefs". Different branches of Christianity disagree on what exactly constitutes the "core", but making such a distinction is near-universal. And, while the claim that Jesus worked miracles is arguably part of that core, questions about exactly which ones, how many, in what order, etc, never have been. Only a very small number of individual miracles belong to that core in themselves, chief among which are the Resurrection and the Virgin Birth. Catholicism takes this idea of "core"-versus-"non-core", and elaborates it into a whole "hierarchy of truths" (also called "theological notes"), with numerous defined levels. Orthodoxy and Protestantism have never accepted the details of that picture, but most Orthodox and Protestants would probably agree that it is more than a simple binary, it is more of a spectrum, even if they think Catholic theology went overboard in trying to break down that spectrum into precisely defined levels. (And some contemporary Catholic theologians agree with the criticism that Catholic theology did historically go overboard with this.) Viewed in that light, it can be defended that while both the Resurrection and the Virgin Birth belong to the core, the former is "even more core" than the later; there may be a small number of other individual miracles (such as the Transfiguration) which may be somewhat core as well, although clearly "less core" than either the Resurrection or the Virgin Birth are. But, one doesn't need to be a Christian at all to understand all this – one can understand the details of the history of how Christians have understood their own doctrines and dogmas, whether or not one personally believes in any of them. > If I accept His death in place of mine This sounds to me like an expression of penal substitutionary atonement (PSA). While many Protestants (especially conservative evangelical ones) tend to believe that PSA is core to the Gospel, other Christians disagree. The intellectual history of PSA can be traced through Anselm of Canterbury in mediaeval England, who in turn influenced Catholic scholastic theology (especially Thomas Aquinas) and then Protestant Reformers such as Luther and Calvin (who despite openly rejecting much of mediaeval Catholic theology, sometimes retained more of it than they consciously realised.) The whole satisfaction/substitutionary approach to atonement is rather Latin/Western (Roman Catholic and Protestant), while Eastern Christian traditions (Eastern Orthodoxy, Eastern Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy, Church of the East) put more emphasis on alternatives such as ransom theory and recapitulation theory. While one could interpret your statement in terms of ransom or recapitulation theory, I doubt such an interpretation would be true to what you actually meant by it.

whatshisface 4y ago

>Because if we can agree on these questions (and the others in the gospel), then and only then can we talk about "Did Jesus walk on water" If someone tells you a story with several elements in it, one that is important but you can't verify, and the others which are trivial but you know to be lies, what would you say about the one important claim they're making? I don't see how someone can (for example) say that angels or miracles are supposed to be metaphorical without calling in to question whether the birth of Christ was metaphorical.

skissane 4y ago
> If someone tells you a story with several elements in it, one that is important but you can't verify, and the others which are trivial but you know to be lies, what would you say about the one important claim they're making? I doubt the Gospels contain "lies". Even if it is true that many of the events in them never happened as described, I doubt they are deliberate falsehoods – which is what "lies" are. I think it is far more likely that its authors genuinely believed they were writing the truth, even if it turns out they sometimes weren't. I think most religious scriptures (whatever the religion) are the product of genuine (even if mistaken) belief rather than blatant charlatanism. Stories can evolve through retelling (especially in oral-centric cultures), such that a small kernel of truth becomes surrounded by elaborate fictions, without anybody ever consciously engaging in lying or deception. Furthermore, a Christian who believes in the "core miracles", but doesn't extend their belief to the "non-core", is unlikely to agree that they "know" that these non-core miracles are false. They are more likely to say that, they have a faith conviction in the truth of the core, but are agnostic ("I don't know") with respect to how much truth is contained in the non-core. I'd be surprised if there was anyone who was positive about the truth of the core, and just as positive about the falsehood of the non-core.