7 ms·

Ask HN: Where Would You Emigrate To?

12 points by greggarious 4y ago

I'm a hacker -- I'm not the best... mostly a phreak turned script kiddie fluent in bash and python, and the "vulnerabilties" I find tend to be web application vulns, not hunks of C that smash the stack. I also have a background in policy, and UX research -- I acquired these skills after leaving Washington DC when Trump took power. I was born in Pittsburgh, and after extensive interviewing (including at RAND and CERT), I'm seriously considering emigration. If you had the above experience, where would you go? I'm eligible for an Italian passport "jus sanguias"[1]. So far, the only places that have made serious overtures are North Korea and Israel, but I suspect I wouldn't be a cultural fit -- both have legal cannabis, but I like to eat so NK isn't a fit, and I'm a lifelong Palestinian rights advocate and uh... not Jewish... so they're off the table despite having a lot of their folks into crypto as in cryptography. I'd joked before COVID I wanted to be a digital nomad and take the train from Moscow to Bejing, but not really inclined to give either tourism dollars and glorious cyberpunk Hong Kong isn't doing so great either so uhh... suggestions? Where would you go if you woke up one morning and felt like your US Passport was worthless? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law#Attribution_of_citizenship_through_jus_sanguinis

realAzazello 4y ago
Why do I feel this is a setup?? Still...Alright, I'll be the first to bite.... You're talking emigration, not just 'nomading'--which is that grey area of having a tourist visa but working remotely, thus technically you're not working illegally within that country. Since most countries are very strict about emigration, yes even EU ones, your best bet is to go for that Italian citizenship which if gained will grant you EU citizenship, and thus the right to free movement of working in the EU. From that, you can leverage working elsewhere in the world. Fun fact: got a friend who has the same benefit as you--he got IT citizenship thanks to both his parents, now lives & works in Milano in cybersecurity. > felt like your US Passport was worthless Don't say that. Don't even joke about that. You must have no oversea-living experience: a US passport will never be worthless - It's priceless--it's the best insurance you'll ever own - no, that you have a Right to - when traveling & working overseas. It'll allow access to more countries than any other passport; it'll help more than hurt your chances for employment in many countries; it'll provide you diplomatic services that most other countries have never and will never provide their citizens; and when the worse happens, it'll allow the US embassy staff to get your ass out of a country (yes, brooking the local rules of law) before you get thrown into its prisons -- even if YOU are the one at fault. If the 'worser' happens, it could be a literal 'get out of jail Free card' for you, depending on the diplomatic relations between the US and that country.
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  > allow access to more countries than any other passport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henley_Passport_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henley_Passport_Index differs: looks like an IT passport currently beats a US (albeit not significantly) for visa-free travel.
  - greggarious 4y ago
    cuba might be an option but i've heard they don't have good internet
  - weatherlite 4y ago
    Well the Netherlands really wants to attract Americans it seems to me https://expatlaw.nl/dutch-american-friendship-treaty https://expatlaw.nl/dutch-american-friendship-treaty. The treaty is one directional as far as I know (Dutch people who want to do the same in the U.S will find brutal requirements). So yes there is a lot of strength in having an American passport...
    - greggarious 4y ago
      When you can’t save up the 5K due to harassment from Nazis that treaty isn’t super useful
  - tlb 4y ago
    That's an index of how many countries don't require a visa. But you might someday care much more about how hard your embassy will work to rescue you if you get kidnapped or falsely arrested in a less rule-of-law-oriented country. A US passport really comes in handy in an emergency.
    - greggarious 4y ago
      No, it doesn’t. It’s not helpful in an emergency stateside either, most of the people who’ve helped me since 2016 are European or Canadian
- 4y ago
082349872349872 4y ago
Val d'Aosta? Bolzano? Trieste? Viareggio? Campione d'Italia? As far as non-italian destinations go, what languages do you speak?
- greggarious 4y ago
  I'd take an Italian course if I became Italian and intended to stay in Italy permanently, I only speak English and a little bit of Spanish/German -- more enough to get a bus ticket or meal or avoid a bar fight in the latter two. But I don't actually have any connection to Italy -- my family on one side is from Poland, another side from Italy, but that was many generations ago. I am an American, I speak American English -- with a thick Pittsburgh accent that gets more intense when I get passionate about something. An international student I knew years back I reconnected with recently told me she thinks I sound like Aldo Raines in Inglorious Basterds when I get angry or passionate, if that paints a picture :-) https://youtu.be/to420F_5YaI?t=75 https://youtu.be/to420F_5YaI?t=75 I feel bad about it being an Italian passport, since I'd probably end up taking Dutch and moving someplace like Rotterdam or Amsterdam (really enjoyed NL), rather than Rome or Milano, places I have never been and seem to hve the same issues Appalachia does: riddled with right wing extremists. (Apparently if you save up some $ you can get a longer visa if studying a language, but if the whole reason for leaving is lack of ability to ply one's trade, it becomes a bit of a catch 22)
  - 082349872349872 4y ago
    In NL, I'd recommend Texel (or maybe Groningen), but it sounds like you're aiming at major urban destinations. Veel succes! [Edit: dutch is pretty easy for an anglophone to acquire, but cultural things that might take some acclimatisation include herring and seriously passive-aggressive christmas poetry]
    - greggarious 4y ago
      I’d be ok living someplace rural and occasionally staying overnight in a larger city as long as the issue we have in America doesn’t exist in NL - in USA rural means lots of annoying right wingers. Also not great transit whereas in NL could get by wo a car right? As for herring, not a vegetarian, and while I’m usually a full on dirtbag leftist in terms of interaction style I’d be ok turning it down to passive aggressive for diplomacy’s sake, especially when it’s a holiday ;-)
krapp 4y ago
The one place that hasn't been corrupted by capitalism. Space!
- greggarious 4y ago
  > The one place that hasn't been corrupted by capitalism. Space! Have you heard of a man named Elon Musk? ;-)
  - 082349872349872 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - greggarious 4y ago
      I left my PHD ABD, and also I'm actually fine with my feet on the ground, but doing infosec or programming for the systems related to launch would be cool and fun if it was something long term and stable. I don't have any issues with Russian people -- as someone who has Asperger's it can be simpler dealing with someone who's blunt and doesn't talk a lot -- but I can't pretend not to despise Putin :-)
  - krapp 4y ago
    Space is big, he can't take it all.
    - greggarious 4y ago
      One planet per species IMHO
      - krapp 4y ago
        You can stay and die on this doomed planet if you want, I'll be tossing back Irish Raktajinos and enjoying my luxury space communism.
        4y ago
pestatije 4y ago
California definately...if you cannot make it there then that would mean not only your passport is worthless
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  [flagged]
- greggarious 4y ago
  I spent three summers there and got zero offers, despite generating publications, a patent, and code. That's how I ended up at the Center for Democracy & Technology -- because I wanted to change law and policy so no one encounters the issues I ever had, but when you change things it severely angers people. (The type who have or used to have more than one, and who I, a native Appalachian, cannot compete with unless I too become a literal spy for the Russians or Chinese)
cko 4y ago
I moved from the US to Romania. The major cities are safe and low-cost. Spain and Portugal are on my radar. The Romanian language can at times sound Italian. You could bounce between the two countries.
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  polymer currency FTW, too. Is that Edelweiss on the 50? (just curious: how is the war affecting you all?)
  - cko 4y ago
    Plastic cash is awesome, but definitely less foldable. I'm looking at a 50 right now and it says Aurel Vlaicu under it. I'm in the Transylvania region. I think I've seen some Ukrainians here but pretty unaffected by the war, besides high energy costs.
    - greggarious 4y ago
      Thanks for sharing I’ll try to visit.
- greggarious 4y ago
  Thanks for reminding me Romania is in the EU. Would I have issues there as a queer person? (The only folks I spoke with from there were some Romani who didn’t have the best view of the folks who reside permanently.) I worry I’d not fit in in Spain since I don’t think Catalonia becoming a nation is justified (not like Scotland where you’re throwing off royals plus staying in the union), and the other areas are more to the right. (Also I speak a small amount of Spanish not Catalan) Galicia was nice when I went there for PETS but got the impression they also have a big chunk who don’t speak Spanish + wanna take autonomy to an extreme for autonomy’s sake. (Anyways I’ll pause my thinking aloud - I’ve been to Spain it’s a nice country. More laid back than DE :-))
  - cko 4y ago
    Spain is very queer-friendly. I was recently in Valencia and it's also super bikeable. Malaga is also worth considering. I'm not really aware of the politics though, since I tend to live in a bubble wherever I live. Romania is not known to be queer-friendly. Where I live (Cluj) is as progressive as it gets (it's full of foreign students from Germany, France and Israel), but I wouldn't walk around all flambuoyant and decked out in rainbows.
bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
Get the passport, go to the places and see for yourself how much you enjoy them.
- greggarious 4y ago
  This is probably the correct strategy, but inability to raise the funds to do so despite some very marketable skills are why I want to leave in the first place
ngoilapites 4y ago
Your post gives a strange feeling, I feel you could work out your world knowledge and intercultural skill.
- greggarious 4y ago
  My email is in the bio if you want a CV
mikewarot 4y ago
If I was going to have to leave my native land, sell the house and move, I'd move somewhere north of Milwaukee in Wisconsin. Close enough to things to be able to get medical care, supplies, etc.. but out of town. Port Washington seems quite nice. Back in 2000, California looked really nice on our honeymoon, but I've heard it's all gone way down hill since then.
hayst4ck 4y ago
You don't sound like someone who has traveled a lot. I would encourage you to digital nomad in different countries for 2-3 months at a time (most countries will let Americans stay 3 months at a time). There is understanding to be gained that can only be gained through experience. There is great divide between civility (you are part of a culture because of your values) and ethnicity (you are part of a culture because you share a history with other people from that culture -- your parents were that culture). There is a great divide between high trust and low trust societies. There is a great divide between rich and poor. There is a great divide between liberalism and authoritarianism. (mostly) Functioning institutions in a high trust, rich, liberal, civil society, which America, particularly educated America, is, is an oxygen you don't know you are breathing. A little travel will let you be a little asphyxiated and therefore more appreciative of American institutions and culture. It will also show you that America is definitely in decline and that American exceptionalism is ridiculous. San Francisco is a horrible city compared to many abroad.
- greggarious 4y ago
  >You don't sound like someone who has traveled a lot. I would encourage you to digital nomad in different countries for 2-3 months at a time Never had enough to do that, and no amount of education or networking brought something that pays well enough, and I've suffered physical attacks that left me nearly dead in my current location.
weatherlite 4y ago
> Where would you go if you woke up one morning and felt like your US Passport was worthless? I get that you feel that but you have no idea how privileged that sounds...a huge chunk of humanity would love to trade places with you. Even Europe isn't having a ball lately economically. I really do hope you immigrate somewhere just to get a healthy perspective on your situation.
- greggarious 4y ago
  >I get that you feel that but you have no idea how privileged that sounds... And I don't think you understand how many times I've gone into detail why I feel this way and had folks react, aghast, that I didn't do it sooner. Did you miss the part where I interviewed at two FFRDCs? To have folks refuse to interview me except for "defense" or precarious nonprofit positions after years of abuse is unacceptable. I'm working on a sequel to this essay[1] that will explain my reasoning, but there are people within this system who will never stop abusing their access until I am dead. Keep in mind everyone is mentioning countries when I said due to the breakdown of the USA, I'm open to other states. I am not going to tolerate a situation where the people who obstruct my career because they perceive me as extremist are the ones who run up on the capital, as some of the members of the Pittsburgh FBI and my local police did. These people, who met me as a child, feel entitled to tell me I'm "privileged" when I've been nothing but precarious most of my life save for accident, not design - I have survived by luck, not hard work to get where I am. [1] https://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/pedagogyofthedepressed.html https://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/pedagogyofthedepressed.htm...
  - weatherlite 4y ago
    No offense but it really does sound to me like you have a lot on your plate already, moving places imo won't do you much good especially if you have some kind of support (family/friends) where you are at. Hope it doesn't sound patronizing I do hope you find whatever it is you're looking for.
    - greggarious 4y ago
      I don’t have family here anymore and very few friends. I warned folks if you cross certain lines, there is no going back.
user_named 4y ago
China.
- greggarious 4y ago
  No
Caitlynbranson 4y ago
[dead]

greggarious 4y ago

I said nothing about working. I will save up enough money to live for a while without working, and see if I make local contacts, get married. Also "emigration" could mean one of the options with an EU passport, not just hanging around coffeeshops doing non-income generating projects and hoping to meet a partner or paying for a student visa to study a country's native language, which is cheaper than you'd expect in many non EU countries. (Like a typical American, I only speak English, though I know enough German and Spanish to navigate public transit() >Don't say that. Don't even joke about that. You must have no oversea-living experience I've presented scientific research on three continents. > If the 'worser' happens, it could be a literal 'get out of jail Free card' for you, depending on the diplomatic relations between the US and that country. I know what the State Department is, Sean "vilerat" Smith is one of the folks who tried to recruit me into the Central Intelligence agency, and I had a "get out of jail free card" in grad school -- they told me as long as the FBI doesn't kick in my adviser's door, I can do whatever I want in the state of Indiana. (Except, apparently, drop out with a master's and work a job that pays a fair wage for my skills and abilities, but I learned a lot in Bloomington.) Maybe your friend in Milano and I can connect? I know a lot about cybersecurity, but since I was an altar server and raised Catholic, and thus do not believe in murder, I have issues in America. (The pope famously said you must go to confession if you volunteer to kill someone in Iraq, a war started when I was a minor, and I told many people in my hometown I will not work for an organization that builds robots to kill brown people at a dinner where they stood around joking that maybe Han's Reiser's wife deserved it -- which was dark as hell since they'd printed a placard for him but he obviously could not attend. Combine those views with the issues you have in Appalachia if you're an exCatholic Me-Too advocate, and you'll begin to understand why I am writing, in increasing detail, why I feel unwelcome in my country of birth.)

082349872349872 4y ago
> Like a typical American, I only speak English, though I know enough German and Spanish to navigate public transit YMMV, but from my experience, I'd suggest budgeting ~2 years to get to reasonable fluency wherever you wind up going, and ~5 years to feel like you've got the hang of your adopted culture. (That's starting from scratch; these days with everything available from home on the internet you might be able to shorten it a bit?) In bocca al lupo!
- greggarious 4y ago
  Thanks I know it would take a long time hence thinking hard where I will end up.
  - 082349872349872 4y ago
    Of course, the flip side is having put in those ~5 years, you will have also gained social and political changes which I see as unlikely as occurring in the Old Country on a time scale shorter than ~25, if ever. (you mentioned NDP: I'm not up on CA politics, but would guess that'd put you firmly centre-left here, with Socialists and Greens as major parties who are even further left)
    - greggarious 4y ago
      And in the USA it engenders such severe and persistent harassment you need to emigrate if your candidates win and your opponents lose. (Congrats to Ed Gainey, and Mike Doyle should make sure the door doesn’t hit him in the ass on the way out.) I’ve started to just describe myself as “left libertarian” to avoid getting into semantic slapfights with adjuncts who argue over the views of dead White Russian men instead of dead white Americans. (People forget that George Washington was an independent and things have been going downhill in this country ever since IMHO) The greens here are morons who got signal boosted in such a way they killed a generation of nuke plants that could have bridged the gap to solar and opened the door to fracking as they took cushy organizing jobs that do nothing but unionize other cushy nonprofit jobs while the minimum wage hadn’t been raised since I made my first emigration attempt in approximately 2009, after the Pittsburgh G20

aebtebeten 4y ago
> I feel bad about it being an Italian passport I'll defer to any HN actual Italiani, but my impression is that they have a similar[0] relationship with bureaucracy as the french: the man spends so much time keeping you down, that if you find a loophole that works in your favour, go ahead and stick it to him. Other NL suggestions: Bergen, Noordwijk, Laren. Especially the last, if you're looking for cosmopolitan outlook. Don't worry about lots of annoying right wingers in rural areas. There may be somewhat more proportionately[1], but they won't be annoying[2]. Minding one's own business is, it seems, more of a european[6] virtue than a US. [0] imx "verboten" means people don't do it; "defense de" means not if cops are watching; and "vietato" means sometimes even the cops do it. [1] where I live, the far right party is nominally a "farmers' party" (despite being controlled by urban industrialists). But just about the only way I'd know they have a lot of support here is by the number of placards (which used to feature the national flag but they've since figured it wasn't working for them) at election time. And I am an obvious foreigner[3], even without opening my mouth[5]. [2] bumper stickers are few and far between here, so jacked up pickups festooned with political flags are right out. [3] one of my favourite anecdotes is the guy who was telling me about all the problems with foreigners[4], only to pause his rant in the middle so he could go help a swarthy young mother in religious headcover get her baby carriage onto the train. [4] "I'm a foreigner too, remember" "Yes, but you're not one of those foreigners" [5] fwiw, I feel more at home here as a foreigner[6] than I did in the Old Country as a native-born citizen. [6] the local stance is less one of left/right identity politics and more one of (regardless of one's political views) sorrow for all those poor saps who have the horrendous misfortune to live in one of those neighbouring villages, 10-15km away.
- greggarious 4y ago
  >imx "verboten" means people don't do it; "defense de" means not if cops are watching; and "vietato" means sometimes even the cops do it. Ty this is useful we need a similar breakdown in English imho - I had severe issues w harassment because of the police/local officials sometimes treating things as “vietato” and other times much more severely depending on if your politics are well liked. (With my politics being I’d be in the NDP in Canada not… literally a communist or someone who’s gonna go full v for vendetta)