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This seems incredibly nit picky. My summary of a few points below: #1: Walker claims sleep deprivation decreases life span, but so does sleeping too much. #2:

by choxi 4y ago

This seems incredibly nit picky. My summary of a few points below: #1: Walker claims sleep deprivation decreases life span, but so does sleeping too much. #2: Walker says sleep deprivation is always bad, but sometimes it helps people with depression. #3: Walker says that lack of sleep alone may kill you because it does for people who get "fatal familial insomnia" (FFI), but insomnia is a symptom and not the root cause of FFI. #4: Walker says the WHO claims we have a "sleep epidemic", but Walker's citation does not actually show that and there is conflicting research showing we may actually be sleeping more. #5: Walker said the WHO recommends 8 hours of sleep, but it's actually the National Sleep Foundation and they recommend 7-9 Here's Walker's response to some of this: https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-responses-to-questions-from-readers/ https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-... EDIT: I added points #3 and #4 after just to be more charitable and give a full summary instead of just the ones I felt were most nit picky.

deleted 4y ago
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epivosism 4y ago
The points you listed feel like strong arguments to discredit a book - what makes you feel they're nitpicky? i.e. #1 is the author using a linear model where it doesn't apply, #2 is the author first promoting a super simplistic "more sleep = better" idea and then contradicting himself, #3 is misinterpreting a symptom as a cause etc.
- choxi 4y ago
  3 and 4 seem somewhat valid. 1 and 2 only apply to a minority of people so Walker’s statements are good advice for most people. 5 is just ridiculous, it’s reasonable to average 7-9 as a recommendation of 8 hours.
  - epivosism 4y ago
    btw I didn't downvote you. Do you feel my questions are not productive to a useful conversation?
  - KerryJones 4y ago
    Walker makes strong arguments that you need a minimum of 8. He doesn't give much leeway. I've been fretting every time I get 7 hours of sleep for the past few months and try to make it up with naps in the day, even if I don't feel tired.
klabb3 4y ago
Thanks for the summary. Some tired thoughts: #1 the premise of the book is that we (both individually and societally) are the only species intentionally depriving ourselves of sleep due to hectic lifestyle and work pressure, which cause undersleeping. It’s a factor we can change. Sleeping “too much” is associated with mortality for different reasons, which according to the book is because of deceases that cause you to be able to sleep more (which would be because the body needs more time to perform the physical recovery function for longer). Most healthy adults can't sleep longer than ~9h for an extended period of time. That, at least, makes a good argument for treating them differently. #2 Sleep deprivation therapy may work well for some people with depression, and I don’t see the conflict in being open minded. Perhaps walker is a bit too reactive in his tone? He is intentionally a little provocative, and that may indeed be harmful to people of literal-mindedness. But what’s the alternative? Putting a caveat in every paragraph that YMMV? Requiring a test that you understand aggregates and distributions in order to buy a book? #3 I remember reading the book and getting exactly that impression. If indeed FFI is a neurodegenerative prion decease (same category as mad cow decease) it’s deeply dishonest to say death is due to lack of sleep. That’s very misleading, no excuses. #4 was a misattribution to the WHO when it was in fact.. the CDC. Welp, I mean, shit happens. This definitely falls under honest mistake. #5 ok? Thanks for the correction, lol.

by choxi 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

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epivosism 4y ago

The points you listed feel like strong arguments to discredit a book - what makes you feel they're nitpicky? i.e. #1 is the author using a linear model where it doesn't apply, #2 is the author first promoting a super simplistic "more sleep = better" idea and then contradicting himself, #3 is misinterpreting a symptom as a cause etc.

choxi 4y ago
3 and 4 seem somewhat valid. 1 and 2 only apply to a minority of people so Walker’s statements are good advice for most people. 5 is just ridiculous, it’s reasonable to average 7-9 as a recommendation of 8 hours.
- epivosism 4y ago
  btw I didn't downvote you. Do you feel my questions are not productive to a useful conversation?
- KerryJones 4y ago
  Walker makes strong arguments that you need a minimum of 8. He doesn't give much leeway. I've been fretting every time I get 7 hours of sleep for the past few months and try to make it up with naps in the day, even if I don't feel tired.

klabb3 4y ago

Thanks for the summary. Some tired thoughts: #1 the premise of the book is that we (both individually and societally) are the only species intentionally depriving ourselves of sleep due to hectic lifestyle and work pressure, which cause undersleeping. It’s a factor we can change. Sleeping “too much” is associated with mortality for different reasons, which according to the book is because of deceases that cause you to be able to sleep more (which would be because the body needs more time to perform the physical recovery function for longer). Most healthy adults can't sleep longer than ~9h for an extended period of time. That, at least, makes a good argument for treating them differently. #2 Sleep deprivation therapy may work well for some people with depression, and I don’t see the conflict in being open minded. Perhaps walker is a bit too reactive in his tone? He is intentionally a little provocative, and that may indeed be harmful to people of literal-mindedness. But what’s the alternative? Putting a caveat in every paragraph that YMMV? Requiring a test that you understand aggregates and distributions in order to buy a book? #3 I remember reading the book and getting exactly that impression. If indeed FFI is a neurodegenerative prion decease (same category as mad cow decease) it’s deeply dishonest to say death is due to lack of sleep. That’s very misleading, no excuses. #4 was a misattribution to the WHO when it was in fact.. the CDC. Welp, I mean, shit happens. This definitely falls under honest mistake. #5 ok? Thanks for the correction, lol.